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[Leonon]

Also rediscovered that the winchester is pretty damn fun to do long range shooting with. I went prone across the valley from a hunting stand. Took out all three of the soldier infected with 5 shots from well over 500 meters. I doubt that kind of accuracy is realistic, but I'll take it.

More realistic than you might think actually, depending on the grade of shot.

Winchester 1866 fires the .44 Henry. If the Wikipedia ballistic performance is accurate the round's speed would be close-ish to a slower .22LR. Even leaving out the firearm and ammunition's quality (found in a barn) after 500 meters the bullet's drop would be ridiculous.

[fenrif]

You're missing my point, and I don't particularly appreciate the personal attack.  I'm trying to say it's not valid to criticize the original game for things that the mod screws up, particularly the things that worked fine unmodded, such as inventory.  For example:

I'm also unable to turn around in most doorways... or narrow hallways, or catwalks. Some buildings won't let you crawl across the threshold, forcing you into standing position, possibly ending with you being dead if the reason you were crawling in the first place is looking in your direction. The multistory apartment buildings have more than once caused me and other people to bleed just from walking up the stairs. Broken legs from walking over a pile of rocks.

Yeah... there... are problems. And that's just with DayZ. My experiences with ARMA2 on it's own had a whole different type of bugginess, mostly related to AI problems.

I've never seen injury from buildings happen in Operation Arrowhead's maps, which introduced most of the enterable buildings.  DayZ added these into Chernarus, which apparently didn't go too well.  Chernarus wasn't designed with enterable buildings in mind.

I suppose my gripe is this:  If you read Ctrl-Alt-Delete's blog post, Tim basically takes these kinds of problems in DayZ and concludes "ArmA 2 must be a terrible game; who would buy this, and why would they put the mod on this game?"    This isn't the first time I've seen people try DayZ without playing ArmA and say this, and it's not really fair to either DayZ or ArmA.  I don't think DayZ would even be possible on any other engine, since I'm not aware of any FPSes that can even handle a map that size.

KG

You're confusing me finding holes in your reasonsing and argument with me making a personal attack against you.

And I get your point entirely, I just don't agree with it. Arma 2s engine has a lot of problems, and you want to excuse them because you like the game. Your personal experience of not having problems doesn't mean they don't exist. Arma 2 isn't a bad game, but it's not perfect, and people having problems with the engine or the game itself are as valid as you not having any problems whatsoever (or having problems but believing that they make it a good sim or that they don't matter).

I don't see how the map itself would have anything to do with the wierd physics problems of entering buildings. You're basically suggesting that something in the map, seperate from the buildings or the engine, is what causes people to get stuck in doorways or on catwalks. When all logical reason would suggest that it's because the game interprets you having a rifle equipped as you carrying a 12 foot broom handle. The most hillarious bit is that you can put your rifle down and it makes navigating buildings much easier, but you can't do that for handguns because... Arma 2! It also doesn't explain why crawling over inch high obstacles will sometimes bug out and cripple you, or why sometimes a gate opening will smash you so hard you lose half your blood, or why ladders are the way they are.

Even things like the inventory. It may have worked fine, but it doesn't mean it's good. Theres a difference between something being adequate and something being well designed, easy to use, or intuitive. Even if you thought it was the best designed inventory ever seen in a video game, that doesn't mean other people can't find fault with it.

In your original post you said "people just don't get it. Well maybe they do, but they don't care for it. Maybe they do, but they don't see the games genre as an excuse for the issues. Maybe they do, but the bugs and problems outweigh the good. The point is that you can't blame all Armas problems on DayZ (and DayZ had many of it's own problems, don't get me wrong).

Also DayZ doesn't really need a map as big as Chernarus for 50 players (the average server load as far as I can tell). Most of the space is just dead and empty of anything. But if it absolutely had to stick to a mapsize that big there are definatly other engines that could manage it, though that's beside the point I suppose.

edit: Just to check I loaded up Chernarus in the armoury... Plenty of enterable buildings, catwalks, and other such places that cause a headache in DayZ. Obviously there have been a lot added in for the mod, but all the pre-existing ones are still nightmares to navigate too.

[The Fool]

Even things like the inventory. It may have worked fine, but it doesn't mean it's good. Theres a difference between something being adequate and something being well designed, easy to use, or intuitive. Even if you thought it was the best designed inventory ever seen in a video game, that doesn't mean other people can't find fault with it.

I'll admit that there are a lot of physics problems in this game, but the inventory works well in the main game. If you don't want a weapon just double click it and you drop the weapon and the ammo associated with it. If you want a weapon and the ammo for it just double click the weapon and the ammo follows it into your bag.

The problem is that DayZ doesn't seem to have proper associations. I've dropped everything in my bag by just trying to drop one thing that way.

There are a lot of innovations that normally streamline an otherwise problematic system that just plain don't work with the mod. There is a lot of things that need changing still, and the inventory is one of them. They should at least be able to make it work as it does in the unmodded ARMA 2.

Please note that I came across the feature while in one of the training exercises, but it consistently did it no matter what weapon I dropped and picked up. I haven't had enough time to test it in the main game though.

[MasterFancyPants]

You're confusing me finding holes in your reasonsing and argument with me making a personal attack against you.

Probably because you're sounding just a bit on the condescending side.

Also, KG isn't defending Arma's problems. He's criticizing  Crl+Alt+Del's article and people who whine about Arma's features (not it's bugs) without understanding the context for which they were originally made. Like the difficultly of turning around indoors, dropping your backpack while swimming, and the inventory (which, normally, does work great by the way).

[Shadowscales]

Well, I think I'm in Stary Sobor, if anyone else is there, I'm in the Bay12 Survivor's group, contact me and we can team up/trade, just tell me which server is best and hopefully the ping isn't too high here in Aus.

[fenrif]

You're confusing me finding holes in your reasonsing and argument with me making a personal attack against you.

Probably because you're sounding just a bit on the condescending side.

Also, KG isn't defending Arma's problems. He's criticizing  Crl+Alt+Del's article and people who whine about Arma's features (not it's bugs) without understanding the context for which they were originally made. Like the difficultly of turning around indoors, dropping your backpack while swimming, and the inventory (which, normally, does work great by the way).

More condescending than saying people's opinions are invalid because everything they dislike about a game are actually good things somehow and "they just dont get it?"

Listing all the problems with the engine then saying either "but other games mess these up too sometimes" or "it doesn't matter" isn't necissarily defending them, but it's definatly trying to explain them away as not being problems.

Turning around indoors... Well I'm going to assume that in general people in the military can navigate inside buildings without wrenching their arms out of their sockets? I mean, it's got nothing to do with the context of why it was made and everything to do with it being an aging engine that cant handle indoor envrioments (despite y'know, having them in the game).

As I've said many times: It's not a bad game. But it's a really really screwey engine that cocks up a lot of things that it shouldn't. And the assumption that anyone who doesn't like it "just doesn't get it" is silly.

[Whitefoxsniper]

I've watched a lot of ArmA 2 videos from shacktactical and I don't think I've ever seen them break any bones from moving around indoors. As far as I know it's a dayz thing.

I think where the ctrl-alt-del's article gets it's information about the ArmA engine being buggy is from all the reviews I've ever read about ArmA 2 saying that it's a buggy game. Most open world games from ArmA 2 to Skyrim have lots of bugs, it's just something that comes from having too big of an area to find all of the problems easily.

[MasterFancyPants]

More condescending than saying people's opinions are invalid because everything they dislike about a game are actually good things somehow and "they just dont get it?"

See bottom.

Listing all the problems with the engine then saying either "but other games mess these up too sometimes" or "it doesn't matter" isn't necissarily defending them, but it's definatly trying to explain them away as not being problems.

I only saw two problems with the engine listed: Ladders, yes they could use work in the Arma series. Sorry.
                                                                Security, allowing script injection has usually been a good thing in Arma. Why take away that (usually) helpful power?               
                                                                I think the biggest failure is not giving server admins sufficient power to prevent attacks.

Turning around indoors... Well I'm going to assume that in general people in the military can navigate inside buildings without wrenching their arms out of their sockets? I mean, it's got nothing to do with the context of why it was made and everything to do with it being an aging engine that cant handle indoor envrioments (despite y'know, having them in the game).

I'm sure if you hold a gun in the 'shooting' position, that you'll find it is indeed hard to navigate indoors. Now, if you lower that gun (Alt x 2) you'll find moving to be much easier.
However in DayZ you are frequently only using a pistol, which brings to light a problem; You can't lower pistols.
The problem is not that Arma can't handle indoor environments, it's that pistols were added as an afterthought. They don't even feel right when shooting.

As I've said many times: It's not a bad game. But it's a really really screwey engine that cocks up a lot of things that it shouldn't. And the assumption that anyone who doesn't like it "just doesn't get it" is silly.

I thought about this and I've decided that I agree with you, partly. Arma is so niche that any major change to the formula can cause features to become game breaking bugs, and even on top of that it has many minor bugs.
Also, I think a mod on the scale of DayZ just won't work in the confines of Arma and what Rocket really needs to do now is licence the RV3 engine; then change it to fit his needs.

Lastly, for me, it's not that people don't understand. It's that they don't care to understand. They have little to no respect for the reason DayZ exists and the community behind it. In fact, I will have no problem when the cult following that DayZ has accumulated all go on to their next "favorite" games and can't wait until they do.

[fenrif]

I've watched a lot of ArmA 2 videos from shacktactical and I don't think I've ever seen them break any bones from moving around indoors. As far as I know it's a dayz thing.

I think where the ctrl-alt-del's article gets it's information about the ArmA engine being buggy is from all the reviews I've ever read about ArmA 2 saying that it's a buggy game. Most open world games from ArmA 2 to Skyrim have lots of bugs, it's just something that comes from having too big of an area to find all of the problems easily.

I think it's a combination of Arma 2's shoddy handling of indoors combined with DayZ's damage system. Vanilla Arma doesn't have a mechanic for breaking bones does it? or for bloodloss? It's not Day Z that makes entering a building an excersize in RE1 style tank control frustration.

I know theres a client-side mod for Arma 2 that fixes the indoors movement hugely. It was suggested as something that should be included in Day Z on their forums at some point.

Anyway, just had a go of the new version (after taking a break for a week or so while all the "hotfixe + etc" patches calmed down. Spawned with hardly any blood and a M104 shotgun, so I figured I'd head to the coast and see how many defenseless wash-ups I could kill on the beach before someone took me down. Managed to get three of them, and then saw someone running along with an axe. Being a fool I assumed that was all he had (and I wanted to see what the melee weapons are like). So I shot at him and missed. He ran behind a tree and emerged brandishing a pistol while I frantically reloaded... Took me down with one bullet. Hope he enjoys all my stuff!

Then I finally got the new Day Z experience of spawning with nothing. Ran around playing Benny Hill with the zombies and ended up leaving the coast with a makarov and two empty canteens. Got lost and found a village inland where I was sneaking around looking for food and water. Zombie teleported behind me and broke my leg in one hit, and since you don't spawn with any morphine I'm now crawling around looking for food, water, and morphine in this little town that has like 3 enterable buildings. I'd try crawling to the next town over, but I kinda think suiciding would be the better option. I just logged off to take a break anyway, hopefully when I log back on something usefull will have spawned nearby.

[olemars]

I've watched a lot of ArmA 2 videos from shacktactical and I don't think I've ever seen them break any bones from moving around indoors. As far as I know it's a dayz thing.

I think where the ctrl-alt-del's article gets it's information about the ArmA engine being buggy is from all the reviews I've ever read about ArmA 2 saying that it's a buggy game. Most open world games from ArmA 2 to Skyrim have lots of bugs, it's just something that comes from having too big of an area to find all of the problems easily.

Shack tactical have their own little mod called ST_Movement that fixes those indoor movement issues.

[fenrif]

I've watched a lot of ArmA 2 videos from shacktactical and I don't think I've ever seen them break any bones from moving around indoors. As far as I know it's a dayz thing.

I think where the ctrl-alt-del's article gets it's information about the ArmA engine being buggy is from all the reviews I've ever read about ArmA 2 saying that it's a buggy game. Most open world games from ArmA 2 to Skyrim have lots of bugs, it's just something that comes from having too big of an area to find all of the problems easily.

Shack tactical have their own little mod called ST_Movement that fixes those indoor movement issues.

That's probobly the one I was thinking of.

[Astral]

I'm also unable to turn around in most doorways... or narrow hallways, or catwalks. Some buildings won't let you crawl across the threshold, forcing you into standing position, possibly ending with you being dead if the reason you were crawling in the first place is looking in your direction. The multistory apartment buildings have more than once caused me and other people to bleed just from walking up the stairs. Broken legs from walking over a pile of rocks.

Yeah... there... are problems. And that's just with DayZ. My experiences with ARMA2 on it's own had a whole different type of bugginess, mostly related to AI problems.

Still, I complain, but it's one of my favorite gaming experiences of the past few years.

I got killed by a desk once. Attempting to loot someone who had fallen underneath it, and met the same demise as he had.

[fenrif]

I'm also unable to turn around in most doorways... or narrow hallways, or catwalks. Some buildings won't let you crawl across the threshold, forcing you into standing position, possibly ending with you being dead if the reason you were crawling in the first place is looking in your direction. The multistory apartment buildings have more than once caused me and other people to bleed just from walking up the stairs. Broken legs from walking over a pile of rocks.

Yeah... there... are problems. And that's just with DayZ. My experiences with ARMA2 on it's own had a whole different type of bugginess, mostly related to AI problems.

Still, I complain, but it's one of my favorite gaming experiences of the past few years.

I got killed by a desk once. Attempting to loot someone who had fallen underneath it, and met the same demise as he had.

The desk is the secret worldboss of Chernarus. If you slay it you gain dominion over all desks!

[gordy]

OMFG this game! Breaking a bone is way too easy and might as well be instantly lethal. I've only started playing it this week, but thought I was on a good roll - some quiet houses to loot, found my first real food and drink plus a canteen, hatchet and a misc. collection of ammo. I'd even for the first time planned where I was going to keep some extra goodies stored, including gas cans, steel and wood piles, a car windshield (!) that was easy for me to come back to. However, the problems - I'd killed 13 zombies with my hatchet and none of them had any gear whatsoever (either that or I was looting them wrong). Enemy detection through walls sucks as well. Finally, I got king hit for shock and a broken bone and might as well call it game over now. Are there any ways to decrease your chances of broken bones? I would prefer a far reduced chance of zombies causing breaks - I am fine with falling and suffering damage.

[sluissa]

Go find some morphine. Carry one or two with you at all times. That's really the only remedy. Last few days I've lost a few to broken bones. Sometimes just giving up, other times zombies, once getting stuck behind barbed wire I could no longer jump over.

Zombies only rarely have anything worthwhile. If anything it's usually trash. Occasionally some food and very rarely ammo. Military zombies are a little better. Ammo is more likely and very occasionally you'll find something really good. One person said they found NVGs on a military zombie.

Even though it's a bit of a pain to pull out if you have a primary slot gun, the hatchet really is an great weapon for indoors. Makes towns much easier to survive if you get seen. If you have a hatchet, just find a building to get into. they'll usually have to slow down at some point inside which gives you the perfect chance to bop them with one of your hundred thousand hatchet bullets.