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Author Topic: Size and Mass questions.  (Read 3178 times)

Triskelli

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Size and Mass questions.
« on: April 23, 2012, 08:34:46 am »
Okay, I'm working on adding some absurdly strong creatures to a mod, but I'm still unsure of how exactly a few of the DF tokens interact with each other.  Especially important are the tokens that involve size, mass, and relative thicknesses of tissues.

So, working on hypotheticals, let's use the example of a "hulked" dwarf.  One of the simplest ways to accomplish this that I've used is this:

Code: [Select]
[SYNDROME]
[SYN_NAME:gamma irradiation]
[SYN_CONTACT][SYN_INGESTED][SYN_INHALED]
[CE_BODY_APPEARANCE_MODIFIER:START:0:APPEARANCE_MODIFIER:HEIGHT:200]
[CE_BODY_APPEARANCE_MODIFIER:START:0:APPEARANCE_MODIFIER:BROADNESS:200]
[CE_PHYS_ATT_CHANGE:STRENGTH:200:0:TOUGHNESS:200:0:ENDURANCE:200:0:START:0]
This syndrome will make your dwarves twice as large as the average dwarf, and double their strength.  Or at least that's the intended effect.  Butchering experiments support these claims.  And while this is a fine enough reaction, it doesn't cover the entire scenario.

For example, square-cube law would infer that as a creature's size increases, its bones and muscles would need to grow exponentially for it to remain upright, or become considerably more dense.  I know that muscle has the [THICKENS_ON_STRENGTH] token, but has anyone done research on how noticeable this effect is?  And while we're at it, what effect does [RELATIVE_THICKNESS] have on combat?  I wanted to make an extra-large caste of a creature, so I added this at the caste level:

Code: [Select]
[SELECT_TISSUE_LAYER:SKIN:BY_CATEGORY:ALL]
       [TL_RELATIVE_THICKNESS:2]
[SELECT_TISSUE_LAYER:BONE:BY_CATEGORY:ALL]
       [TL_RELATIVE_THICKNESS:4]
[SELECT_TISSUE_LAYER:MUSCLE:BY_CATEGORY:ALL]
       [TL_RELATIVE_THICKNESS:6]

But all that seems to do is make those body parts more susceptible to denting.  This does warrant a liberal application of !!SCIENCE!! though.  Urist Da Vinci's thread about knockdown physics has me thinking about the mass of tissues as well.  Would a creature that's twice as dense but still the same size be effected by larger armor?

Just some musings and questions.  Might preform some more rigorous tests of my own later.
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Putnam

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Re: Size and Mass questions.
« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2012, 08:57:29 am »
I think that that wouldn't make your dwarves twice as large--it would make them 4 times as large.

Relative thickness is just that--relative. What you did there isn't increase the size of skin, bone, and muscle--you just made muscle exactly as thick as the other two combined while keeping the same overall size.
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Triskelli

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Re: Size and Mass questions.
« Reply #2 on: April 23, 2012, 09:07:31 am »
Quote from: Putnam on April 23, 2012, 08:57:29 am
I think that that wouldn't make your dwarves twice as large--it would make them 4 times as large.

Relative thickness is just that--relative. What you did there isn't increase the size of skin, bone, and muscle--you just made muscle exactly as thick as the other two combined while keeping the same overall size.

Ah, I think you're right about the first one.

But for the second, the idea is to make the bones thicker as well.  Is there any reliable way to test how thick a material is?
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1v0ry_k1ng

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Re: Size and Mass questions.
« Reply #3 on: April 23, 2012, 09:34:39 am »
if you use the default humanoid template, throwing in
[RELSIZE:BY_CATEGORY:MUSCLE:250]
will give you a creature with 25% more muscle mass than standard (default = 200)

so if you were to make that, say
[RELSIZE:BY_CATEGORY:MUSCLE:600]
 :)

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Triskelli

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Re: Size and Mass questions.
« Reply #4 on: April 23, 2012, 10:53:42 am »
I thought RELSIZE was a cosmetic feature with no effect in-game yet.  I'm mainly trying to figure out what stats need to be changed to reflect changes in size and density, and how those changes affect gameplay.  I'll probably do some serious experimentation when I get the time.
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1v0ry_k1ng

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Re: Size and Mass questions.
« Reply #5 on: April 23, 2012, 11:45:58 am »
no, it definitely works ingame. Give a creature's fat layer a huge relsize and it becomes almost indestructable, for example
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Triskelli

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Re: Size and Mass questions.
« Reply #6 on: April 23, 2012, 12:17:37 pm »
Huh.  Then what's the practical difference between [RELSIZE:XXX] and [TL_RELATIVE_THICKNESS:X]? 
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GavJ

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Re: Size and Mass questions.
« Reply #7 on: April 23, 2012, 12:45:05 pm »
If you want to make everything thicker equally, then you shouldn't touch relative thickness at all, since the relative thickness would be the same, yes?  Just making the thing bigger will by definition make every layer thicker.
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1v0ry_k1ng

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Re: Size and Mass questions.
« Reply #8 on: April 23, 2012, 12:51:38 pm »
on the other hand, if you want somthing man sized to be half indestructable but still made of flesh, the way to do so is give it very (relatively) thick fat and muscles
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Triskelli

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Re: Size and Mass questions.
« Reply #9 on: April 23, 2012, 01:43:12 pm »
Quote from: GavJ on April 23, 2012, 12:45:05 pm
If you want to make everything thicker equally, then you shouldn't touch relative thickness at all, since the relative thickness would be the same, yes?  Just making the thing bigger will by definition make every layer thicker.

Well, not exactly.  I do want the head and such to stay comparatively smaller.  But I'll probably make some custom tissues as well just to experiment with density.

As an aside, here's what I've been using to train with in the arena:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
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1v0ry_k1ng

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Re: Size and Mass questions.
« Reply #10 on: April 23, 2012, 02:24:29 pm »
for bonus points, make the sand pressurized so it leaks out when the bag is pierced
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Triskelli

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Re: Size and Mass questions.
« Reply #11 on: April 23, 2012, 03:23:28 pm »
Quote from: 1v0ry_k1ng on April 23, 2012, 02:24:29 pm
for bonus points, make the sand pressurized so it leaks out when the bag is pierced

I think I'll need to make a new body_plan.txt, since that's where that token is defined.  Also, suddenly I can't wrestle the damn thing.
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walberg

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Re: Size and Mass questions.
« Reply #12 on: April 23, 2012, 04:28:16 pm »
Quote from: Triskelli on April 23, 2012, 03:23:28 pm
Also, suddenly I can't wrestle the damn thing.

It has no arms/legs/whatever to wrestle, so the best you can do is probably give it a.... ummm.... really nice hug... Hrrrgkkkkk!
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Triskelli

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Re: Size and Mass questions.
« Reply #13 on: April 23, 2012, 07:13:37 pm »
Quote from: walberg on April 23, 2012, 04:28:16 pm
Quote from: Triskelli on April 23, 2012, 03:23:28 pm
Also, suddenly I can't wrestle the damn thing.

It has no arms/legs/whatever to wrestle, so the best you can do is probably give it a.... ummm.... really nice hug... Hrrrgkkkkk!

Well, I was able to wrestle it before, and I was able to get it working again.  The Sandbag will be able to straight up deflect any punching attacks, but any cut/scratch attacks will give a satisfying "tearing the burlap!" message.  This version has the sand inside listed as guts, so if you tear it hard enough the sand will pour right out.  Try it out if you want!

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
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