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I really like the new system.

127 (35%)

Better than before, but more needs to be done.

93 (25.6%)

It doesn't make a difference to me.

41 (11.3%)

The changes don't really address my issues.

6 (1.7%)

I don't like it at all.

35 (9.6%)

I have mixed feelings on the matter.

61 (16.8%)

Total Members Voted: 362

[Ieb]

This post will probably not contribute to the discussion in any way except telling you people what some guy thinks of the new update to mining.

I like it. A lot. Ever since I meddled with the 2D version of Dwarf Fortress, I've missed how miners weren't quaranteed to leave pieces of rock where-ever they went, but were able to mine out mineral veins perfectly at legendary level. Coal was a special case, but anyway.

This new version? Aww yeah. I don't have a bazillion boulders everywhere anymore, with mining tunnels looking for metals I still get more than enough of those than I would like, and the "1 ore rock = 4 metal bars" thing is great too. As far as the rare metals go, that is easy to get around. More abundant minerals at worldgen, I just order what I want from the caravans instead of digging for the ore myself. It's not that big of a deal then, but I guess it can become an issue if you prefer less mineral-abundant worlds.

And I can actually have a huge mining crew too and it won't hurt my metal operations that much, it just speeds up the process as long as I got the crew to haul the ore and process it. Sure, it comes down to luck how much ore I get from a vein, but a lot of things in DF get down to luck. Ah RNG, you are a cruel mistress, but I love you so. Hurt me more and send some of those deadly dust titans my way again.

[dbay]

I was really skeptical at first, until I had to dig out a huge area to make a refuse stockpile, and found that 75% of the room was clear from the get-go without dumping. I'm all for it, now, I think it's one of the best updates so far

[GoldenShadow]

Yea. I can collect all of the presents from Goblin christmas in a few days instead of years.

[Splint]

Yea. I can collect all of the presents from Goblin christmas in a few days instead of years.

What does dead guy junk have to do with mining actual ores?

[Tarran]

Maybe he's from the future and in the future it's possible to mine Goblins?

[Splint]

Well, I can see what he means if miners are employed against them.... But that's a 100% drop from aliving ore that makes itself available, so it doesn't count.

[Makbeth]

Honestly, most people don't even do real time-consuming projects because we honestly DON'T have much time to play. The longer it takes to set up a fort or complete a task, the less likely we'll ever enjoy it because we wouldn't be able to have fun or !!FUN!! within our timeframe/attention span. The game is reasonably paced right now and there's certainly difficulty for anyone not prepared to deal with the naturally occuring !!FUN!!, and unnatural difficulty can be applied through mods, but making resources more scarce doesn't really make things more difficult in the sense that you're in mortal danger, just more tedious and time-consuming. Less resources = less enjoyable and a longer wait for anything to happen, which sucks.

Of course, I am tackling the concept from the standpoint that I absolutely hate grindfest-type games that demand you waste time and energy on resource acquisition before blowing shit up/even encountering real problems, like being killed. I don't want resources to take more work to obtain as much as I want to take my massive hoard of legosstone and make a castle of horrors of such ridiculous complexity that I forget how to operate it, then enjoy the brand-new combat AI that makes defeating a siege far more satisfying and more difficult. I do such sadistic things as throwing a half dozen legendary soldiers against a horde of giants, because that's both fun to watch and !!FUN!! when the tantrum spiral starts because Urist mcDead was married, had a dozen kids, and was friends with everyone else. Waiting for blocks to be ready for my megaproject? No. I've been happy with rough stone boulders because I like to start as soon as possible.

The problem with that is, what you're describing isn't a game at all - it's just a construction set. 

A construction set where you have infinite powers, and you just use the terrain as your canvas is fine and all, but it's not a game and it has no challenges.

The game that DF is moving towards and should be isn't something where you move blocks around for 20 hours before deleting the world and making another world again and starting over from scratch. 

It should, instead, be a 300-hour project where you scratch your way up from meager beginnings to controlling a world-spanning empire, with every step along the way adding additional challenge and complexity until you are simultaniously juggling the military strategies of an army on the march, their logistical needs, the intra-court politics of your king and nobles, relations between the dwarves and their tigermen and antmen allies over the benefits of citizenry, maintaining farm production, keeping the citizens of your capital entertained with bread and circuses, keeping guild conflicts to a minimum, keeping the minecarts running on time, getting enough barrels made to keep booze production running, and making sure the mandates and moods get completed.

The tagline of the game is "Losing is Fun" because Toady wants us to keep coming back to the same fort and world with its ever-increasing depth and personality rather than just deleting the world and starting another random one every time you're done pushing around your lego megaprojects. 

The construction set things will still be there, but there's so much more game to be added onto DF.

As a person who works for a living, I hope that people who want things in a game that could take 20 hours to take 300 hours get ignored by everyone even related to the business of making games.

Part of the reason we enjoy doing a thing in a game and don't enjoy doing the exact same thing in real life is because in the game, much of the inconvenience is taken out.  One of those inconveniences is time.  Imagine sandbox games that have multiple cities, where the distances between the cities were realistic.  Whatever your opinion of Assassin's Creed may be, I'm willing to bet you'd like it more as it is and less if it had realistic travel time by horse from Damascus to Jerusalem.  If someone tried to defend the realistic distances as making the game challenging, well, I'm not sure what your response would be, but mine wouldn't be very polite, because that person doesn't know what makes a game fun, is not good at their job, and is taking up space that somebody else should have.

[traxzilla]

I know other people have raised these points but I still feel like chiming in. I like most of the changes, but the lowered drop rate means I can't build as many mechanisms and crafts (and I build a LOT of those), and my legendary miners are not really much better than novices. If you could make furniture/mechanisms/crafts out of blocks and if the manager would list options for metal mechanisms, it would be a non-issue.

I've never had a problem with too much stone, but I use quantum stockpiles and atom-smashers to clear up clutter and I understand that some people prefer not to do that.

[Broseph Stalin]

I know other people have raised these points but I still feel like chiming in. I like most of the changes, but the lowered drop rate means I can't build as many mechanisms and crafts (and I build a LOT of those), and my legendary miners are not really much better than novices. If you could make furniture/mechanisms/crafts out of blocks and if the manager would list options for metal mechanisms, it would be a non-issue.

I've never had a problem with too much stone, but I use quantum stockpiles and atom-smashers to clear up clutter and I understand that some people prefer not to do that.

I think useable blocks is the next logical step I really hope toady comes around.

[WhatDoesThisLeverDo]

I don't do megaprojects, so it's just positive for me.

Fewer ores lying around, and once I make blocks I'm good to go.

[Sutremaine]

It's a little annoying that flux is now 1/4 as common as it was before, but if you did or didn't have enough before then that's very unlikely to change. Doesn't melting return more metal now? That'll save a little bit on flux useage. Otherwise I'm fine with the drop rate itself.

I like most of the changes, but the lowered drop rate means I can't build as many mechanisms and crafts (and I build a LOT of those)

Do you make them because you enjoy using them as trade goods, or because it's a way of getting rid of the stone that you'd otherwise be atom-smashing?

Mechanisms (and other things that need to be made from raw stone) are an interesting case. If you're making enough of them for the 1/4 drop rate to be an issue, then the labour and infrastructure you already had available for your mechanism-using megaproject can be briefly diverted into pump part production in order to set up an obsidian farm.

[Di]

I've chosen 'I don't care" since it didn't change things that much. It's a bit odd, to have a pair of veins to be mined in order to equip two dozens of soldiers but I doubt that iron veins in DF resemble the real ones any close. And I've yet to deplete at least one level completely. Though I'd recommend to lower metal rarity to 2000 in worldgen.

[PainRack]

Well..... the game changes part of my themed trade, where I would trade mechanism and flour/dye/syrup to the humans but otherwise.... the only difference was a huge shock when I thought I lost my mined iron.

The other thing is, it just became a lot harder to make steel, since, I don't have a dolomite/etc layer and had to rely on a broken up cavern layer of marble.

[Blizzlord]

Isn't difficult steel production a good thing? It is way to easy as it is now considering all the benefits you reap.

[Splint]

Isn't difficult steel production a good thing? It is way to easy as it is now considering all the benefits you reap.

Not so much easy in sopme regards, as it depends on where you go that dictates how easy it'll be. A glacial volcano with no coal or trees and caverns more hostile than expected or with no iron ores can make life a little miserable in regards to that.