Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 ... 33 34 [35] 36 37 ... 46

Author Topic: The "How Does Minecart" Thread  (Read 221442 times)

khearn

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: The "How Does Minecart" Thread
« Reply #510 on: June 14, 2012, 06:43:33 pm »

I'm pretty sure I've sen it reported that dwarves will carry a minecart loaded with magma up stairs, and do so with no damage. It was probably earlier in this thread, or else in the "Minecarts are for what? No, really." thread.
Logged
Have them killed. Nothing solves a problem quite as effectively as simply having it killed.

Rafal99

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: The "How Does Minecart" Thread
« Reply #511 on: June 14, 2012, 06:51:39 pm »

I did testing in the arena and got some promising results:

1. A dwarf who carries minecart with magma will have his hands melting.
In some turns nothing happens while in another turn you get "You are melting" x100 type of messages.

In all tests the dwarf carrying the magma minecart will bleed to death after about 30 moves.
But since the minecart with magma is very heavy, the dwarf carrying it moves at 1/10 speed (99 in adventurer-speed-units).
So in other words he WILL die after about 300 of typical-dwarf turns.

2. Making him wear Steel Gauntlets or any other handwear doesn't help all, he still dies after about the same time.

3. Now the fun part:
If you grab the magma minecart and an empty minecart and put the magma minecart into the empty minecart so you get something like this when looking into inventory:
Code: [Select]
iron minecart
. iron minecart
  . magma [833]

You will only get the melting injuries for one turn (possibly from the fact that you had to grab the magma minecart for one turn to put it into the other minecart).
After this the little hand burns you got will quickly heal and the dwarf won't get any further burning injuries.
He can carry the double minecart with magma for long time without any issues.



I'm pretty sure I've sen it reported that dwarves will carry a minecart loaded with magma up stairs, and do so with no damage. It was probably earlier in this thread, or else in the "Minecarts are for what? No, really." thread.

Are you sure you had temperature enabled?
« Last Edit: June 14, 2012, 07:29:21 pm by Rafal99 »
Logged
The spinning Tantrum Spiral strikes The Fortress in the meeting hall!
It explodes in gore!
The Fortress has been struck down.

Rafal99

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: The "How Does Minecart" Thread
« Reply #512 on: June 14, 2012, 07:16:26 pm »

Conclusions on how to move magma in minecarts without track across z-levels:
1. Have the short track passing through magma to load minecarts with magma.
2. Have minecart stockpile very close (so dwarves dont touch magma minecarts for too long).
3. Unassign the magma minecart from the track so they get put into stockpile.
Even better: you can make the magma loading track in such a way that minecarts end their way in minecart stockpile automatically.
4. Have a hauling route with 2 stops between which you want to move the magma. Have the first stop take furniture->minecarts from the magma minecarts stockiple. Have the final stop drop the contents into another minecart stockpile.
5. Assign some empty minecart to this route, have it loaded with magma minecarts, then moved and unloaded at destination.
One minecart can contain 12 other minecarts! It is because minecart capacity is 50000 while its size is 4000 - size only takes into account volume of material the object is made from, not the actual dimensions of the object.
6. Now you have stockpile with magma minecarts near the destination. Build a track stop that dumps its contents where you want the magma to be placed.
7. Make several hauling routes with one stop at the target track stop and assign magma minecarts to the routes. Distance between the final minecart stockpile and the track stop must be small (so dwarves dont touch magma minecarts for too long).
8. Have the dwarves drop the magma from the minecarts.
9. Bonus if you assign dwarves who with high strength, toughness and recuperation to hauling magma minecarts at the 3. and 8. Strength will minimize the time it takes them to haul the minecart so less chance of them dieing.

This may seem like a lot of work, but if you want just a few magma tiles near the surface for your workshops, this is less work than designating 100z-levels of spiral minecart track.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2012, 10:56:12 pm by Rafal99 »
Logged
The spinning Tantrum Spiral strikes The Fortress in the meeting hall!
It explodes in gore!
The Fortress has been struck down.

Urist Da Vinci

  • Bay Watcher
  • [NATURAL_SKILL: ENGINEER:4]
    • View Profile
Re: The "How Does Minecart" Thread
« Reply #513 on: June 14, 2012, 07:53:19 pm »

I'm pretty sure I've sen it reported that dwarves will carry a minecart loaded with magma up stairs, and do so with no damage. It was probably earlier in this thread, or else in the "Minecarts are for what? No, really." thread.

Here:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=109460.msg3297524#msg3297524

Guiding the minecart doesn't result in damage.

I did testing in the arena and got some promising results:
...
At the time, I also tested in the arena (the same things that you tried). However, fort mode dwarves have access to a special way of moving the carts that adventurers can't do. If you try riding the cart, for example, you will find that you are undamaged. Guiding it is similar.

Overall, this thread has lots of useful information hidden on the earlier pages. In fact, it was created so that people would be able to find information before they have to ask the question. Maybe the wiki is a better place for that then a thread.

Rafal99

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: The "How Does Minecart" Thread
« Reply #514 on: June 14, 2012, 08:42:02 pm »

I did testing in the arena and got some promising results:
...
At the time, I also tested in the arena (the same things that you tried). However, fort mode dwarves have access to a special way of moving the carts that adventurers can't do. If you try riding the cart, for example, you will find that you are undamaged. Guiding it is similar.

Overall, this thread has lots of useful information hidden on the earlier pages. In fact, it was created so that people would be able to find information before they have to ask the question. Maybe the wiki is a better place for that then a thread.

The point of my testing was specificially HAULING of the minecart with magma.

Not guiding, pushing or riding, because they all these require you to build a complex track across many z-levels.
And yeah I know it was tested earlier in this thread that guiding doesn't hurt dwarves while hauling does hurt them.
But noone have found a way to make hauling of magma minecarts safe without the need for a track. While I did.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2012, 08:47:51 pm by Rafal99 »
Logged
The spinning Tantrum Spiral strikes The Fortress in the meeting hall!
It explodes in gore!
The Fortress has been struck down.

Xen0n

  • Bay Watcher
  • Took joy in ‼SCIENCE‼ lately.
    • View Profile
Re: The "How Does Minecart" Thread
« Reply #515 on: June 14, 2012, 09:43:19 pm »

I did testing in the arena and got some promising results:
...
At the time, I also tested in the arena (the same things that you tried). However, fort mode dwarves have access to a special way of moving the carts that adventurers can't do. If you try riding the cart, for example, you will find that you are undamaged. Guiding it is similar.

Overall, this thread has lots of useful information hidden on the earlier pages. In fact, it was created so that people would be able to find information before they have to ask the question. Maybe the wiki is a better place for that then a thread.

The point of my testing was specificially HAULING of the minecart with magma.

Not guiding, pushing or riding, because they all these require you to build a complex track across many z-levels.
And yeah I know it was tested earlier in this thread that guiding doesn't hurt dwarves while hauling does hurt them.
But noone have found a way to make hauling of magma minecarts safe without the need for a track. While I did.

Many Bothans Dwarves died to bring this information.  I will make sure it is put to good use :D

Rafal99

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: The "How Does Minecart" Thread
« Reply #516 on: June 15, 2012, 12:05:46 am »

I just got another awesome idea how to haul magma in minecarts without a track:
Magma Minecarts inside Wheelbarrows!

The whole design can even be completely automated!
Without the need to assign and unassign minecarts to different tracks at a time.


Plan - near the surface (side view):

Oddddd=====S==<<Zccccc
                   U

Near the magma (side view):

Obbbbb==        ==<<Xaaaaa
             \7777/


Explanation:
\7777/ - magma reservoir, with tracks in it and rollers to bring minecart up the ramp
U - here we want magma
aabbccdd - stockpiles accepting minecarts
===<< - track and rollers
S - track stop, set to lowest friction (so it doesn't stop the minecart), set to dump the contents perpendicular to the track into the U
XZ - track stops set to dump their contents to the left
O - wall to stop minecarts


The process goes like that:
1. Empty minecarts are put into stockpile aaaaa
2. There is a hauling route with one stop on X, with assigned vehicle, set to take furniture->minecarts from stockpile aaaaa.
3. Empty minecarts are put into the minecart on track stop X, the track stop dumps them to the left, placing them on the rollers.
4. Rollers move the empty minecart into the magma reservoir, they get filled with magma, then the roller on ramp moves them up, they follow the track, then go out of it and stop at the wall, effectively the minecart with magma is being placed stockpile bbbbb.
5. Stockpile ccccc is set to take from stockpile bbbbb and has assigned 3 wheelbarrows. Dwarves savely transport the minecarts with magma inside wheelbarrows into the surface into stockpile ccccc.
6. There is a hauling route with one stop on Z, with assigned vehicle, set to take furniture->minecarts from stockpile ccccc.
7. Magma minecarts are put into the minecart on track stop Z, the track stop dumps them to the left, placing them on the rollers. (same as in 3.)
8. Rollers move the magma minecart along the track, they pass through the track stop S and dump the magma in the destination point U, then they follow the track, go out of it and stop at the wall, effectively the emptied minecart is being placed stockpile ddddd.
9. Stockpile aaaaa is set to take from stockpile ddddd. Dwarves haul the empty minecarts back underground near the magma into stockpile aaaaa.
Then we go back to start and the whole think repeats.


I did a quick test and dwarves happily move minecarts inside wheelbarrows between minecart stockpiles.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2012, 12:20:55 am by Rafal99 »
Logged
The spinning Tantrum Spiral strikes The Fortress in the meeting hall!
It explodes in gore!
The Fortress has been struck down.

Di

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: The "How Does Minecart" Thread
« Reply #517 on: June 15, 2012, 08:05:09 am »

And yeah I know it was tested earlier in this thread that guiding doesn't hurt dwarves while hauling does hurt them.
But noone have found a way to make hauling of magma minecarts safe without the need for a track. While I did.
Nope, to everything.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
This gentleman has explained everything already:
Here:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=109460.msg3297524#msg3297524
At the time, I also tested in the arena (the same things that you tried). However, fort mode dwarves have access to a special way of moving the carts that adventurers can't do.
Even a dwarf armed with axe, one iron shield and six crying shields can haul one additional item, because they use telekinetic powers given to them by fortress collective mind.
I like your idea of automatic dumping carts on to rails though.
Logged
Quote from: Creamcorn
Dwarf Fortress: Where you meet the limit of your imagination, moral compass, sanity and CPU processor.
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=103080.0 Fix sober vampires!
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=91442.0 Dwarven Cognitive Science

Rafal99

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: The "How Does Minecart" Thread
« Reply #518 on: June 15, 2012, 09:37:42 am »

Ok, thanks for the info then.
I quite followed this thread from the start but obviously I could skip or forget some stuff people mentioned.

Still I had a lot of creative fun while thinking about my design. :)

And thinking about it, most of it still remains useful:
- Dumping carts onto rails, or having them move from the track directly to the stockpile should save some micromanagement of creating many hauling routes with one minecart each.
- Having the minecarts being moved inside wheelbarrows should make their hauling MUCH faster. They are very heavy when full and dwarves move at about 1/10 speed when hauling full minecart. With wheelbarrow they would move at full speed.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2012, 09:54:52 am by Rafal99 »
Logged
The spinning Tantrum Spiral strikes The Fortress in the meeting hall!
It explodes in gore!
The Fortress has been struck down.

TerryDactyl

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: The "How Does Minecart" Thread
« Reply #519 on: June 15, 2012, 12:51:08 pm »

Maybe it's time thread OP make an update.

Xen0n

  • Bay Watcher
  • Took joy in ‼SCIENCE‼ lately.
    • View Profile
Re: The "How Does Minecart" Thread
« Reply #520 on: June 15, 2012, 12:54:56 pm »

Ok, thanks for the info then.
I quite followed this thread from the start but obviously I could skip or forget some stuff people mentioned.

Still I had a lot of creative fun while thinking about my design. :)

And thinking about it, most of it still remains useful:
- Dumping carts onto rails, or having them move from the track directly to the stockpile should save some micromanagement of creating many hauling routes with one minecart each.
- Having the minecarts being moved inside wheelbarrows should make their hauling MUCH faster. They are very heavy when full and dwarves move at about 1/10 speed when hauling full minecart. With wheelbarrow they would move at full speed.

That automated wheelbarrow magma minecart hauling method basically fixes my longstanding problem of not being able to easily (and without FPS drain) get some magma to the surface.  Not only that, it makes delicious use of non-Euclidean Dwarven geometries to hold objects larger that other objects, inside those objects.  Also magma is being carried in a wooden wheelbarrow essentially.  Perfect.  :D

melphel

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: The "How Does Minecart" Thread
« Reply #521 on: June 15, 2012, 10:27:53 pm »

I have a few small discoveries regarding minecart rides.

1.Dwarves can admire buidlings while riding mine carts.
2.Dwarves will not fall asleep during a ride (at least not from being drowsy).
3.If riding on a continuous powered track loop, the dwarf will die of dehydration/starvation as they can not jump off to get sustenance.
Logged

Di

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: The "How Does Minecart" Thread
« Reply #522 on: June 16, 2012, 05:57:58 am »

Well, that teleportation thingy grieves me deeply. It provides neither means for teleporting dwarfs, nor ways to hurt creatures behind the wall.
I had observed the phenomenon when high speed cart was running over down ramp it was meant to follow.
The setup
Code: [Select]
.| _____
../
('|' is a wall, '.' -floor, '_' -rails, '/' -ramp)
Cart enters from right. Instead of going down it appears to the left of the wall at zero speed, all contents are dumped on ramps.
During the piloted run, the volunteer was hit by the cart while above the ramp then collided with wall and floor consequently.
While experience was unpleasant at best dwarf got away with a pair of bruises and broken wrist which is something unexpected considering that dwarf bumped by cart of this speed and mass would leave a long trail of brains in tunnel.
The fact that rider happened outside the cart suggests that the collision with a wall takes place. Based on faster than light carts theory I could suggest that cart gets placed around .51 in the wall during its flight which causes collision to occur. Speed is set to zero but coordinate rounding up causes the cart to be placed on the other side.
This doesn't rules out the possibility of warping through the wall without collision but it means the speed must be even higher.
This behavior was observed on 14 z-level slope with galena filled lead cart weighting over 4000 urists total. Mass is relevant since 500 urists cart will get airborne in only 6 levels of acceleration.
Also, I've sometimes noticed galena boulder ending up in the same tile as cart, but I can't say if they teleported or got there by other means.
Logged
Quote from: Creamcorn
Dwarf Fortress: Where you meet the limit of your imagination, moral compass, sanity and CPU processor.
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=103080.0 Fix sober vampires!
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=91442.0 Dwarven Cognitive Science

Oaktree

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: The "How Does Minecart" Thread
« Reply #523 on: June 16, 2012, 05:23:07 pm »

Probably needs a summary thread at some point in the Wiki.  Perhaps as "Minecart Talk" being presented by Urist and Urist, the HammerIt Bros.  :o
Logged
Armorer McUrist cancels forge steel mailshirt, interrupted by minecart

darkrider2

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: The "How Does Minecart" Thread
« Reply #524 on: June 17, 2012, 07:39:08 am »

I've been trying to set up a supply route that starts at my masons workshops in the mountain, goes to my furniture stockpile, then goes to my construction site outside.

However, I can't get the settings right because there seems to be no way to send a minecart off only after its empty of a certain type of item, while there are still other items in it. I've been settling for a timed delay but this is really annoying.
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 33 34 [35] 36 37 ... 46