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Author Topic: The "How Does Minecart" Thread  (Read 224770 times)

Larix

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Re: The "How Does Minecart" Thread
« Reply #660 on: May 09, 2014, 05:13:03 am »

I mean you must put the ramp where otherwise a straight track bit could go, an impulse ramp on a corner won't do you any good, you need at least a 2x3 track array for proper braking. A ramp directly in a corner can't be derailed over while staying in the loop (there won't be a corner the cart can follow), so it'll derail into the wall and stop hard, losing its cargo in the process.

Impulse ramps on corners are no good for accelerating moving carts, either - once they're fast enough, carts will just go over the ramp, bump into the wall and re-start from a standstill. That's why a 2x2 impulse ramp loop
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keeps the cart moving, but without reaching much speed - the cart takes 32 steps for each round, since it stops and starts on each ramp. A proper looped accelerator of 5x2, using flat track corners and a block of three ramps where straight track would go, accelerates a cart to maximum ramp-viable speed in ~400 steps, after which time the cart takes five steps for a full round in the loop.

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You could place a second block of three ramps in the eastern half, but this design is already enough for max speed. If you want the cart to take the corners on ramps without losing all speed, you have to change z-level. This is doable and i've done it, but keeping the cart under control gets a bit complicated.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2014, 05:29:59 am by Larix »
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Hetairos

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Re: The "How Does Minecart" Thread
« Reply #661 on: May 09, 2014, 11:39:05 am »

What are the practical applications of riding minecarts? How do dwarves decide whether to ride a certain minecart or not? Can dwarves shoot while in carts?

Larix

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Re: The "How Does Minecart" Thread
« Reply #662 on: May 09, 2014, 05:08:14 pm »

Mainly, riding the cart can get a dwarf from A to B much faster than walking and can also allow crossing obstacles like lakes or pits. It takes some foresight and perhaps testing to make sure the route is actually ride-safe. A particularly clever application was the "minecart swimming track" - http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2012:Swimmer#Minecart_training

Riding minecarts is governed by the "place/push track vehicle" labour in the "hauling" section. Any civilian with that labour can take a ride. I haven't tried that, but burrows covering the start point of the routes should allow specifying the jobs some more.

Shooting is possible. I've seen dwarfs shoot and hit when passing nearby disturbances, i think some others have actually set up a "mounted archer patrol", using labour settings and burrows to make sure only the archery squad would ride the carts.
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Naryar

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Re: The "How Does Minecart" Thread
« Reply #663 on: December 09, 2014, 07:32:05 am »

Naryar makes a gesture !
The thread shudders and begins to move !


So, how do I minecart railgun ? I get the impulse ramps accelerator thing (make a track in a 1z tall tunnel, then build ramp tracks like crazy in it), i get the reloading system, but tossing the magma-filled minecarts against an immobile minecart next to a fortification seems to do nothing. The magma doesn't leave the minecart Not to mention that minecarts cross the magma ditch around half the time only.

Also these impulse ramps seem not to work, somehow.

I have followed that 34.11 water gun thread pretty well, but I really want to throw magma-covered -large serrated iron discs- and magma blobs at my enemies.

I have heard i must have my fortifications 1 z-level higher than the minecart track, and the water gun doesn't have fortifications 1-z higher.

Any help ?
« Last Edit: December 09, 2014, 07:34:14 am by Naryar »
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Larix

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Re: The "How Does Minecart" Thread
« Reply #664 on: December 09, 2014, 10:41:10 am »

Without a sketch of your layout, i can only offer somewhat vague advice:
- if impulse ramps don't work, they're not constructed the right way. To accelerate, a ramp needs a track branch to a wall and another to a "floor". The "floor" connection is the important one, it determines the acceleration direction; direction and even number of "wall" connections doesn't matter, as long as each ramp tile has at least one. The wiki has a picture of a proper impulse accelerator.

- if the cart doesn't eject its load, it's not moving fast enough. This ties in with the previous issue. The minimum cart speed for shotgun effects is reportedly 70k, i.e. a cart dwarf-pushed down a three-z incline. An impulse rail of four ramps should be enough. More ramps give more speed and thus a more powerful shot.

- fortifications and the like only influence what happens to your payload _after_ it has parted company with the minecart. Whether you get a shot or not only depends on speed. If you bump the cart into a completely walled-off chamber, the ammo will be spilt all over the floor. Fortification "muzzles" don't need much refinement: you can bang a speedy minecart directly into a fortification under closed ceiling and your magma blob or other munition will fly right through.
The stationary minecart seen in so many designs is only needed if you send the shooting cart across a hole in the floor for easy recycling: in that case, the cart will "fly" and would pass through the fortification. But it won't fly through a minecart in its way (and that cart counts as on floor after being hit and thus can't pass the fortification, either). If you use a different recycling method and thus don't work with a hole in the track, you don't need the stationary cart.
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Naryar

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Re: The "How Does Minecart" Thread
« Reply #665 on: December 09, 2014, 11:05:58 am »

Actually I have done my impulse ramps wrong. They weren't aimed at a wall, just straight.

Uzu Bash

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Re: The "How Does Minecart" Thread
« Reply #666 on: September 05, 2017, 04:10:04 pm »

How would I launch a minecart diagonally across a region?
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bloop_bleep

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Re: The "How Does Minecart" Thread
« Reply #667 on: September 05, 2017, 04:17:15 pm »

How would I launch a minecart diagonally across a region?
You could try to derail it by, e.g., using a west-pushing roller on a north-south minecart track. However, I don't think that minecarts "catch" back onto rails after they've been derailed, so if you want the minecart to continue someone needs to haul it to the appropriate hauling stop.
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Uzu Bash

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Re: The "How Does Minecart" Thread
« Reply #668 on: September 05, 2017, 09:22:48 pm »

If it's flying "across a region" then I'll worry about building a receiving track after I see where it lands. I know I can send a cart across cardinal directions, and I know I've derailed them diagonally while testing those tracks, so now I'm trying to send air couriers diametrically across the map. I'd avoid using rollers near launch because they would definitely cause a lethal drop in velocity.
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bloop_bleep

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Re: The "How Does Minecart" Thread
« Reply #669 on: September 05, 2017, 10:35:07 pm »

If it's flying "across a region" then I'll worry about building a receiving track after I see where it lands. I know I can send a cart across cardinal directions, and I know I've derailed them diagonally while testing those tracks, so now I'm trying to send air couriers diametrically across the map. I'd avoid using rollers near launch because they would definitely cause a lethal drop in velocity.
IIRC rollers only set the velocity component in the direction they're pushing. If you send a minecart at derail speed on a N/S track and power a west-pushing roller on the track, the W/E component would be set but the N/S component would be unchanged, thus causing the minecart to turn and subsequently derail.
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Fleeting Frames

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Re: The "How Does Minecart" Thread
« Reply #670 on: September 06, 2017, 12:24:44 am »

That's also true for colliding north-south and east-west travelling carts (just tested in 42.06), so you're not limited to 50k east-west speed.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2017, 12:27:15 am by Fleeting Frames »
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Uzu Bash

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Re: The "How Does Minecart" Thread
« Reply #671 on: September 06, 2017, 08:24:18 am »

Even if they don't reduce speed, rollers won't accumulate enough perpendicular velocity to launch a cart going 270k in a 40-45 degree angle. So I'm trying to design a track that will accumulate roughly equal x/y vel before ramping into the air, ideally with enough vel to cross a 3x3 embark.

Here's what I have so far:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The cart will reach the diagonal stretch at near or at max speed. What kind of track configuration would convert some of that vel to perpendicular velocity?
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Re: The "How Does Minecart" Thread
« Reply #672 on: September 06, 2017, 09:04:33 am »

You can't really convert "some" velocity, you can either add velocity, remove velocity or change NS velocity to EW (or vice-versa) with a corner (corner ramps excepted, where they'll take 6k velocity from 1 direction and add 5k to another - but you can't really make use of that, as that sideways velocity gets ignored by next corner ramp). It's why we mentioned roller and collision.

You may think that you can alter NS and EW impulse ramps in a diagonal for diagonal velocity. What will actually happen is that the cart passes over NS ramp, checkpoints over EW ramp, and collides with wall, resetting it's speed to 0, then repeats. (Larix's post at the start of this very page is relevant.)

But, I suppose you could send off a cart west on a line of NS accelerating carts at max speed - find out where it moves off the tile, and continue the NS accelerating line at that point, repeating until you have cart that moves at derail velocity in two directions at once.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2017, 09:08:57 am by Fleeting Frames »
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Uzu Bash

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Re: The "How Does Minecart" Thread
« Reply #673 on: September 06, 2017, 01:03:13 pm »

The spiral shown above isn't attempting to achieve diagonal movement, that simply brings velocity to maximum in a small footprint. The part that's only designated because its still tentative would be the planned exit track, while the west exit ramp labeled 'test' will be closed. None of the alternating ramps are straight lines and I hadn't imagined that to be useful here.

Except for the starting power assembly and the exit ramps, the entire track is enclosed, so there are no valid down ramps (or any valid ramps.) Is the checkpoint effect applied here? Every ramp is also curved, so shouldn't it be reduced to half-checkpoint?
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Re: The "How Does Minecart" Thread
« Reply #674 on: September 06, 2017, 07:53:49 pm »

Yeah, I wasn't speaking of the spiral, but of the designated part.

Checkpoint applies always when your ramp acceleration direction changes (having floor above ramp doesn't matter for this), which happens twice for each turn in your spiral (once for entering L-corner from ramp, and another time for entering next ramp from L-corner). Not that it matters much there - maybe you'll need bit more ramps for max velocity - maybe 1 or 2 per corner? - and that's it.
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