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[Crossroads Inc.]

Sizik, did I not get onto the list in time to play?
Did not see my name on there

You never explicitly said that you wanted a turn.

Awww
Shoot I should have been more clear..
Well yes I would like a turn then if possible

[Daenyth]

Excellent! I can't wait to see what the previous morons glorious overseers leave me.

[Graebeard]

Alrighty, I'm one season into the second half of Sizik's turn.  I can tell this is going to be a lot more challenging than the last round.

First of all, there's the constant onslaught of undead chinchillas, wombats, and miscelaneous birds.  Turns out fighting the undead gives some pretty bad thoughts.  Right now I'm really hoping not to end up with a berzerk woodcutter or miner slaughtering the rest of these fools.

The cliffs on this map are pretty dramatic.  Certainly the most sheer I've seen since 40d.  I'm really looking forward to seeing how we end up integrating them.

Prospected down a few levels so far.  Lots of gems, but haven't run across any metals.  We may have to rely on goblinite.

The map is deeper than I expected.  The bottom layer is 180ish levels below the surface.  Not sure how that's distributed, though, and how far away magma is.

Lots of trees on the surface.  I usually don't build constructions with wood, but it's easy and accessable so I'm using it now while I churn out blocks.  Once I don't need them for walls and floors I'll probably switch the wood over to glass production.

General fortress design is still up in the air.  I think I'm going circular, but I'm trying to keep it interesting.  Right now my priority is sleeping/eating space for everyone.  Stepping in at turn 7 last time I didn't really appreciate all the little challenges with not being able to burrow underground quickly.

Edddit.  Looks like it freezes in the winter.  Didn't see exactly when, but it's 11 Timber right now.  I'm trying to set up a pond-draining underground cistern (which will actually be easier while everything's frozen).  Hopefully no one gets injured before the thaw.  I've failed at these in the past, so I'm hoping my design is sufficiently tweaked.

With no river the only traditional renewable source of water will be (possibly) the caverns.  I encourage someone down the line to take a crack at securing one or both once we have an army of masons.  One unconventional option for water production might be an ice and magma based water multiplier.  With sufficient acumen this could be combined with a freezing trap or other unnecessarily dangerous contraption.

Quick question along these lines:  If I cast an obsidian room above ground, dig (not channel) it out, and fill it with water, will the water freeze in the winter?  In other words, (if I understand correctly) will the dug-out tile be subterranean?

[EmeraldWind]

If it is considered Above Ground then it will always be Above Ground. If it is Above Ground, water will freeze.

So the Tower will need an underground water cistern. Or magma heated water. (Does that even work?)
This will prove to quite the challenge, I think.

[Graebeard]

If it is considered Above Ground then it will always be Above Ground. If it is Above Ground, water will freeze.

So the Tower will need an underground water cistern. Or magma heated water. (Does that even work?)
This will prove to quite the challenge, I think.

It does work, but I haven't tried it in a couple of years.  I think for a while (maybe still?) the magma had to be moving.  Alternating 3/7 and 4/7 would do it, but stationary 7/7 wouldn't.  Not sure if that's the case now.  Either way, I don't think it'll be me finding out.  I don't want to breach the caverns yet so it's up to someone else to implement magma.

[Daenyth]

Since you're setting the foundation I'd like to request that you do keep it roughly circular, and can we have room for a minecart double helix around the edge, from bottom to top? It just seems right.

[arclance]

If it is considered Above Ground then it will always be Above Ground. If it is Above Ground, water will freeze.

So the Tower will need an underground water cistern. Or magma heated water. (Does that even work?)
This will prove to quite the challenge, I think.

It does work, but I haven't tried it in a couple of years.  I think for a while (maybe still?) the magma had to be moving.  Alternating 3/7 and 4/7 would do it, but stationary 7/7 wouldn't.  Not sure if that's the case now.  Either way, I don't think it'll be me finding out.  I don't want to breach the caverns yet so it's up to someone else to implement magma.

I have done that before, to an entire brook.
It was long so I had to heat it from the top and bottom for even coverage, the bottom is contained and the top flows off the edge of the map.

Here is what you need to know about heating water with magma.
1. The magma must be moving to heat the water, 4/7 to 5/7 seems to work the best.
    3/7 can evaporate over time because you get 2/7 in some places.

2. You can only thaw one layer of water at a time so large cisterns may be impossible.
    This will work for wells if you also heat the room the well is in from the ceiling.

3. Magma does not heat water from the sides only top and bottom.
   This means you can not have heated columns of water that keep cisterns filled and above ground waterfalls/waterworks will freeze in winter.

4. Mist generators work if you heat the pumps from the top and the space below from the bottom.

For a tower you may want to see if dfhack can change some of the tower to be indoors or have a higher temperature.
You can also turn temperature off while everything is thawed but then magama won't burn or melt things anymore.

[EmeraldWind]

For a tower you may want to see if dfhack can change some of the tower to be indoors or have a higher temperature.
You can also turn temperature off while everything is thawed but then magama won't burn or melt things anymore.

The only problem here is indoors doesn't stop water from freezing. It is Above Ground/Underground Status.
Any space that has a roof above it is considered Indoors, but any space that has been exposed to the sky is considered Above Ground forever.

It looks like if we want water in the tower we need a magma bloodline. It might be worthwhile to devote a two z-levels (one for water, one for magma)
of the tower for this purpose. If the magma needs move and get up that high we will need power. But windmills will be hard to deal with in a fort that might
accidentally built something high above them (I'm pretty sure that windmills need to be considered Outside to work and an accidental roof could make that tile
Inside). Plus there's the danger of the machine freezing if too cold.

Waterwheels are also equally unlikely. Would it be against the general idea of the fort to construct a floating flow? That is a tank of water high up that has
perpetual flow. A perpetual flow requires water to flow off the map, by either getting absorbed by an aquifer or literally off the map. The game marks the water
as having permanent flow. Then you simply dam it up and leave it mostly filled (as 7/7 doesn't realize it is flowing). That seems a little undwarven and a bit cheap
though. Plus there is still the potential to freeze unless the water is the magma-heated water. Which means we'd still need power to get the magma up there.

Ah, this is interesting and fun. It's vertical thinking. I'm so used to thinking down and across; thinking upward is kind of fun.

[arclance]

Yes the only downside to using magma is that you are limited to simple water uses.
Specifically nothing where water moves between more than two z-levels will work year round.

This means that mist generators (tested but you may still get the occasional dwarfsicle if you don't block the water squares), water reactors, and 1z deep cisterns work.
But more elaborate things like waterfall filled towers (what I was 1/3 of the way done with in my screenshot) don't work unless you do one of these things.

1. Change the temperature inside the tower with dfhack.
2. Turn off temperature when everything is thawed (what I did to check if my tower even worked).
3. Embark somewhere that does not freeze in the winter.

If you have the hospital inside the tower it will need to be like this for patients to be able to get water (side view).

Code: [Select]

MMMMMMMMM
fffffffff
ffffwffff
WWWWWWWWW
fffffffff
MMMMMMMMM

M = magma
f = floor
w = well
W = water
Otherwise the water will freeze before it gets to the patients.

I can post some screenshots of my eternally thawed brook if you want to see them.

[Sizik]

What happens when a waterfall freezes? Does the midair water turn to ice and cause cave ins?

[arclance]

I don't know.
I have never played a map with a natural waterfall that froze in the winter.
I think the wall behind the waterfall would support the ice block if it did happen in most cases.
That sounds like something we would have heard about if it did though since it would be hilarious.

Code: [Select]

Winter is upon you.
A section of the cavern has collapsed!
Urist McCarpHunter has died after colliding with an obstacle.

Edit:
I took a look at the save to see what the embark looks like and two things come to mind.

1. Whoa that's a really tall cliff.
2. I agree unless you find water in a cavern, you will need to hook all the ponds up to an underground reservoir and hope it rains a lot.
    You might try heating the ponds from the bottom with magma to see if you can collect snow as well.

Quick question along these lines:  If I cast an obsidian room above ground, dig (not channel) it out, and fill it with water, will the water freeze in the winter?  In other words, (if I understand correctly) will the dug-out tile be subterranean?

It's a good idea but I don't know, you would have to test it.
If it was going to work it would have to be like this. You must never poke any holes in the top layer of obsidian.

Code: [Select]

OOOOOOO       OOOOOOO
OOOOOOO       O  w
OOOOOOO  -->  OOO OOO
OOOOOOO       OWWWWWX
OOOOOOO       OOOOOOO
O = cast obsidian
W = water
X = floogate/door/drawbridge
w = well

You can test the concept by casting a 3x3x3 cube of obsidian on the ground and then digging an up/down stair into the center from the bottom.
Then check if the center of the cube is considered underground or above ground by the game.
If it is underground it should work.

[Graebeard]

Winter was brutal, but at least it was short.

Spoiler: Spring! (click to show/hide)

Laying out the bedrooms on level 3

Spoiler: Spring Stocks (click to show/hide)

Spoiler:  A Winter Wonderland (click to show/hide)

Note the cliffs to the left.  Lots of blue bubble bulb growing underneath the snow.

With the thaw it's about time to throw the switch on the pond-drainer.  Wish me luck!

Spoiler: Springtime in the air (click to show/hide)

For the curious, snowmelt is around 7th Granite and icemelt is around 22 Granite.

[arclance]

Looks good but I recommend you channel this out to maximize flow.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Those two ponds are connected by a diagonal right now which will increase water loss due to evaporation.

Quick question along these lines:  If I cast an obsidian room above ground, dig (not channel) it out, and fill it with water, will the water freeze in the winter?  In other words, (if I understand correctly) will the dug-out tile be subterranean?

I tested this myself and unfortunately it does not work it is still considered to be above ground.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

[EmeraldWind]

What happens when a waterfall freezes? Does the midair water turn to ice and cause cave ins?

I can answer this. In the case of a standard waterfall the walls of ice are held up by adjacent walls like another natural or constructed walls. Since in natural waterfalls there always a wall or floor, it will just freeze.

If there are no walls to stick to they will collapse.

In my second successful fort, I had dining rooms behind a natural waterfall. There were never an collapses even after I mined out the wall behind the waterfall to allow mist in (which still prevented collapses due to the natural floor). My only problem in this situation was that dwarves loved to stand on the accessible ice floors in the waterfall and usually decided to do this when they wanted to watch the waterfall thaw in Spring. It took me a couple years to figure out why at the end of Winter a bunch of dwarves and animals suddenly ended up at the bottom of the waterfall.

[Graebeard]

Looks like the neighbors finally came over to welcome us!

Spoiler:  Welcome, Tadin! (click to show/hide)

Edit: Don't walk your caged necromancers to the communal cage in the dining hall past your butchers shop.  Trust me.