Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Martin]

The meeting was called.

Never before had the leaders of the mountainhomes all met together, but this was urgent. Dwarvenkind itself was at stake. The great hall at Imushidok was packed. Kings, barons, and experts from all over Ruspzūza had assembled, including representatives from the humans and elves. King Lorbakust presided over the head table, surrounded by the leaders of each of the other mountain homes, each in their finest noble gear, but with one exception who was impossible to overlook. At the king's side was not a noble but a great soldier, looking quite out of place. Decked out in masterwork adamantine armor constructed by his own hand, Morul was no ordinary soldier, but a dwarf legendary in all skills, and presumably the reason why this day had come.

It had been several years since Morul left his home of Lashedwines. He spent decades there, learning all of the dwarven arts, and becoming proficient in all weaponry and combat. But in the last few years there he grew concerned. Lashedwines was besieged by orcs, which Morul singlehandedly dispached each time they came. But over time, the orcs became better equipped, then later they arrived larger and stronger. This was not unexpected that the orcs would send their best and fiercest warriors against a fortress that refused to fall, but in the last few years the orcs became enormous - the size of giants, then later as large, strong, and tough as collosi - sieging 60 at a time. Morul still defeated them - eventually - but these were not just elite orcs, but creatures perverted by some unknown force.

Morul knew he would have to seek out the source of this threat. He could not defend Lashedwines forever, and the orcs would not stop coming. He equipped the fortress with the finest equipment he could, trained up the guards, told them to button up, and bid his wife farewell. Her wounds from the fortress madness had taken their toll and she was nearing her end. Morul would not see her again. Fully outfitted, he set out and followed the scar the orcs had carved across the earth, leading to his home. Tracking the orcs would clearly be easy, and he encountered another siege group along the way, and left no survivors. After several weeks of travel, he spotted a tower from the crest of a hill. Even at a great distance he could smell the presence of the orcs. He prepared himself a meal, and set off. He had killed thousands of orcs. He despised them, and he came here intending to kill thousands more. With anger in his eyes he raced toward the tower and encountered hundreds of orcs doing simple labors - and he slayed each that he found. Circling the tower, everything that his keen eye could see dropped before his axe or in the sights of his crossbow. There was no escape from his martial trance. The huge orcs he had faced at Lashedwines were sent out from the tower to no effect. They fell as readily as the others. After a full day of slaughter, no more orcs could be seen and none more emerged from the ominous structure. The stench of death would never leave this place. As Morul entered the tower, he shuddered. He had faced many vile things, and heard of many more, but dwarves hadn't encountered anything so distinctly evil as this place. As Morul continued inside, from a high ledge a shadowy voice called down to him:

"I see I will have to work harder to defeat you, Morul Cattenmat."

"Indeed you will. Have you no more orcs for me?"

"No, there are no more. You have removed them from this world. But your brutal act will come to haunt the dwarves. The souls you have released will someday return and seek their vengeance by destroying dwarvenkind. And on that day, you will find your axe to be of little use."

"Fortunately, I have more than my axe!" And with this Morul drew his crossbow and fired at the form above, only for the figure to vanish before the bolt could strike. Morul sprinted forward, leaping up the great stairs, and explored the space above, but it was fruitless. The being was gone. But at least the orc threat was eliminated.

Lashedwines and the other mountainhomes enjoyed a period of great prosperity with the threat eliminated. With this, they learned new medical skills, how to tame bees, mastered pottery and other crafts. But troubling news started to come from the traders. They were reporting mountainhomes crumbing in the span of a year. Dwarves have always been tempermental and quick to anger and Lashedwines had nearly fallen to such a fate, but this was different. In some cases, traders found dwarves lying dead in their beds. In other cases, there was no sign of the dwarves anywhere - just random hostile creatures roaming the fortress. But the most troubling news came from a human caravan that reported a hunting expedition nearly being wiped out on their return trip when the animals they had killed days before rose and attacked them. Morul reflected on that conversation in the tower. Perhaps that day had come. It was time to meet the king.

The king called the meeting to order and laid out the problem before them:

"Good dwarves, as you know, evil has come to our land. Three mountainhomes have fallen in the last year. Most of you have encountered this evil first hand in some form. The humans and elves are suffering as well and have allied with us in addressing this threat which we still do not fully understand. We meet today to construct a plan. The elves are our eyes and are tracking the expanse of this threat - and it is expanding. They will bring word to you through their traders. The humans are working to understand how this evil spreads. You've all seen the effects - these evil creatures hide among our immigrants and spread their evil like a disease within our own fortresses. Most of you now refuse to accept immigrants into your fortresses - and those that are fleeing their homes being overrun and being left to die in the wilderness. This cannot stand. This will destroy us. We need a means to protect our civilization until we know how to combat it."

One of the Barons, Aniliden spoke out: "How can we protect against what we cannot see?! What do you suggest we do, hide like a purring maggot? We must fight back immediately!"

This provoked another Baron, Nanirkol: "And why do we leave our fate in the hands of the humans and elves. The humans are untrustworthy and elves are only fit for a wooden coffin!" Eyes glanced toward the humans and elves in the room, who appeared crestfallen at the change in tone.

Baron Urusiton jumped in: "Shut up Nanirkol! We need help, not prejudice! I think it is time we take to the sea and seek out other lands. These creatures travel by land. Let us leave them this one."

The assembled crowd now jumped in on one side or another - some angered by the prospect of fleeing their homes, others by the idea that they shoudl run headlong into what has so far been a certain death. All of the scared in some way of the threat facing them.

"Enough!!" As a gleaming axe crashed through Lorbakust's prize artifact bloodthorn table. A distant cry from a carpenter could be heard. The command silenced the room as echoes reminded everyone. Morul was now clearly in charge. "While you argue dwarves are dying in your homes. We cannot fight this threat now and I fear this is of my doing." Morul recounted the tale from the tower - parts of which he had never revealed before. Murmurs went around the room as missing pieces fell into place. The king spoke up:

"Morul, is there nothing you can do?"

"Not yet. I cannot fight that which remains beyond my reach. But there is hope. You think of me as a great warrior, but my success as a warrior came from first being a scholar - learning the dwarven arts. And we continue to learn - as with these wheeled donkeys. We will learn from the elves and humans and they from us, we will study this evil, and we will defeat it. But we need to survive first, and we cannot prosper while dwarves are being driven from their homes. We need a sanctuary - and we must build it together."

"What do you have in mind?" Urusiton inquired.

"I will lead a small group to start a new mountainhome. I will take 6 others with me - one from each of the mountainhomes that can offer a volunteer. We will avoid attention and establish this sanctuary. When the time is right, I will give word for each of you to start sending migrants. We will populate this place with the bloodlines of all dwarvenkind and I will pass down my knowledge to them, and collectively they will become experts in all fields, studying this threat and helping us combat it. If the other mountainhomes fall, we will remain standing, preserving our cultural knowledge, ready to reclaim our homes when we turn the tide. I will not allow dwarvenkind to fall."

Questions now started coming from all corners: "How will you protect it?"

"By all means necessary. I will train the other 6 as guards, but any who would assail the Sanctuary will need to get through me personally. I will stand with it to the end."

"But we can't trust migrants now! What's to stop one of these evil creatures from sneaking inside?!"

This was a good question and Morul pondered it for a moment. A solution was offered by the king: "One thing we do know is that this disease doesn't spread through objects or else our traders would have brought down our civilization almost immediately." The humans in the room nodded in agreement. "The disease appears to only spread through proximity. The migrants must be quarantined - forever, or until a cure is developed or the source wiped out." Morul acquiesced: "I'm afraid you are correct. We will quarantine the migrants within the fortress. Families that migrate will stay together. New families will be formed. Each of the arts will live in isolation of the others and their offspring will learn the arts as well and carry their traditions along."

"What of those that break quarantine?"

"They will have to eliminated. I will carry that burden myself." Morul turned to the nobles: "Make sure your migrants understand this. On solemn word, I will enforce the quarantine. Choose them carefully, and prepare them well. This is not a proper life for a dwarf, sealed away from the pleasure of a great hall. I will make it as pleasant as possible, but it will be a lonely, if safe place."

"And how will we get word from you? Quarantine means you cannot leave."

"We will maintain trade. The humans and elves will need our craft and we will provide them with all that we have. We will spread word through the traders. Only myself and the six founders will remain in contact with the outside, and we will remain isolated from those inside. Trade will also mask what we are doing - appearing like any other mountainhome. Any other questions?"

The room was quiet. Small discussions began to break out around the room. The plan was set, it was time to make it work. Morul called the dwarven cartographers to the head table and asked them to find a suitable site. It would need all the resources to preserve a mountainhome for all time, and still be reachable by the traders. That would be no small feat. The human and elf representatives approached and they discussed their roles. They would begin trade as soon as they receive word of the fortress location and help them get established. The other nobles would find volunteers for this effort and begin to prepare migrants, waiting for the day. The room was busy with activity. But most importantly, the room was filled with hope.

Morul drank some strawberry wine and contemplated his new home, unlike any constructed before it.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

[size=78%]Map with Level 1 mostly complete[/size]

[Martin]

Spring 551

We have arrived and will rest a day before unpacking the wagon and beginning construction. Winter lasts long here. It's mid-spring and the river is still partially frozen, but there is sand and clay here - critical building materials. And the land is flat. I did not enjoy the orcs hiding behind hills at Lashedwines, but here I will see everything that approaches. The cartographers appear to have chosen well. It is calm here - no foul beasts to harass the migrants on their journey. We'll see if their predictions for what lies below proves as good.

During our journey I've come to know these other founding dwarves and I like them a great deal. They were well chosen. We have some good combat skills, which I trust we will put into use before long - and the king was generous with the wagon. We could have brought the finest wares, but didn't want to draw too much attention to ourselves. I miss my adamantine, but trust that I will get a new set before long.

We've been discussing some of the challenges we face in construction. Mebzuth is a very capable mechanic, and helped pioneer the use of these minecarts. We will use them to great advantage here. He's worked out some airlock designs. We will need a great deal of power, and that frozen river will prove a challenge. Sarvesh's carpentry skills will be important early on as we will start with a small wooden surface structure and Atis, who has worked extensively as a mason, has a keen sense of space and will plan much of the Sanctuary design. Zon has some clothing skills and will keep us outfitted until the fortress starts running - but his real skill lies in his war hammer. He and Atis seem to have grown quite close since we embarked. I was concerned about the choice of Sigun - feeling we didn't need a doctor with skills beyond mine, but I was convinced otherwise. We do not know what this evil will bring, and there was quite a bit of concern that I might fall to some illness and need treatment. Fair enough. She has proven quite adept at keeping everyone's spirits up and in hindsight I am pleased she is with us. Kadol was another curious choice as there was no clear skill that she brought, but she is incredibly focused and remembers absolutely every detail. As we were discussing the design of this place and getting lost in the complexity of it, she retained every detail. I hadn't anticipated that need. Thankfully someone else did.

So we have arrived well and without incident. We were told to expect a caravan in fall, so it'll be a few seasons before this is received, but we will try and send word regularly. I will document this effort extensively in the event that we should fail, so others can learn from our efforts and hopefully succeed.

[Martin]

So, background on Morul.

tl;dr version: Back in the 40d days I dreamed up the challenge of training up a single dwarf to legendary in every (achievable) skill in the game at that time. It took roughly a year, and Morul was the result. During that effort, I considered a sequel, which is this - two years later. I didn't want to repeat Morul, as that was an exercise in how each individual skill operated and how to maximize it - and basically turned the entirety of the rest of the game into supporting that one effort with a fair bit of micromanagement and modding to keep the in-game duration reasonable.

This is similar in that instead of every skill in one dwarf, the challenge is an entire fortress that possesses the same skills in aggregate. That's easy enough - most of us do that in the course of running everyday fortresses (except for trapping, which is a ginormous PITA, and a handful of others). But this is really a challenge in fortress design due to the quarantine. Each skill will be physically isolated from every other. So there will be a single farming bunker, but the output from the farms needs to be transferred to the brewery bunker - without dwarf-to-dwarf contact. Until 34.08, that pretty much meant either an insanely complicated airlock system, or pitting, which is micromanagement beyond all reason. But I believe minecarts provide the solution. In order to minimize (eliminate?) the micromanagement, the fortress will be designed to be as self-operating as possible, so this should test the bounds of stockpile orders, hauling routes and filters, and so on. It doesn't' sound too complicated on first blush (take all of the lye and send it all to the soap maker) but *every* dwarf has to be connected to the booze production, with output being roughly evenly distributed - or else someone will die. And the barrels need to be returned to the brewer. And some to the lye maker. And some to the butcher, and so on. Further, there must be a manual airlock system to get dwarves in to the bunkers. Finished goods need to get out, and traded/dropped goods back in. Power will need to be distributed everywhere. Water and magma need to be available for some (should everyone have a well?) Moods need to be satisfied and preferences respected so arbitrary goods need to be quickly distributable (should everyone have their own cache?). Will the isolated dwarves marry and breed? Adult dwarves will respect burrows and the like, but their kids won't - so the isolation can't rely on the job system - it has to be physical. It has to be impossible for a tantruming then melancholy dwarf to wander out of their bunker and into another. So drawbridges not floodgates, and dwarves can survive a drop into a pit, so they can't be able to path back out again.

And 7 dwarves need to be able to defend this place and handle all of the trade/cleanup. The hauling improvements will get tested here. Many aspects of this challenge should be easier because everything runs in parallel (and many aspects of the game have improved). Other aspects will be harder - overall construction/layout/design for one. Keeping everything in balance for another - and having it planned out well enough from the outset to accommodate growth. There will be further modding here as well. Again I don't expect enough adamantine on the map to get strand extractor skilled for multiple generations, so I'll mod that reaction in to something - maybe nether caps. Trapping remains a problem due to vermin extinction - need to think that through. The dissection skills remain a challenge. These dwarves are supposed to be isolated but beekeeping needs outdoor access, and I intend to grow all crops so I need both subterranean and non-subterranean farm space. Sand is on the surface, so I need to get that moved down below. Same for clay. How big does the tree farm need to be to keep the fortress stocked? What about plant gathering space? How big does the obsidian farm need to be since we need endless stone? What will the power plant look like since the river freezes. I don't think windmills will cut it. What dwarven reactor will produce enough power and not destroy my FPS? I'm actually starting this on the same laptop that I did Morul on, and I'm trusting the new one I plan on getting in the next 2 months will carry me through this.

It's a 5x5 embark so that I have enough space to build. I set worldgen to give 40 z-levels between the first cavern and the surface - which should be enough. I'm thinking that each 'level' of the space, if multiple are needed to deal with crisscrossing transportation needs will be 5z-7z high to give enough space for water, power, and carts. There are 3 cavern levels with only a few z between them, but I set them to be quite open in worldgen. Volcanism is set to the max, so I'm hoping there's a magma pipe near the surface. I tried to find one at the surface, but wasn't able to with sand, and clay, and water, and trees, and proximity to all civs - including a necro tower. Thanks to vjek for helping with the params.


Morul is indeed in this game. That part took the longest as so many of the tools to mod skills don't work with .34. I used dfusion (great idea, btw) and with some guidance from Rumrusher managed to modify one of the dwarves to Morul. The full name is changed, and the skills are changed. He's legendary in everything useful in fortress mode including the stuff that didn't exist in 40d (I didn't bother with 'Reader', etc.) and super-legendary in the military skills, roughly approximating where he was when Lashedwines ended. I don't know if that will carry over to body attributes (it doesn't appear so) but I haven't found those in the unit data yet. If anyone can send some pointers so I can do that, it'd be appreciated. I'd hate for our legendary leader to get tko'd by the first goblin that wandered by. Having a legendary everything dwarf will help in getting the fortress set up and defended, but not much help past that.  In Lashedwines, I modded out all ambushers as it was too risky having Morul running around early in the game plant gathering only to get jumped by a bunch of gobbos. Everything is in this time - and with a necro tower in range, should include some undead as well. Fortress defense is the real deal here.

So here's the basic rules:

1) Each discrete skill gets its own 'bunker'. It should be absolutely impossible for any dwarf to get from one bunker to another when sealed in. The one condition I cannot prevent in-game is if a dwarf chooses to ride a cart against hauling orders. The only thing I can think of to prevent that is to intentionally derail each cart over a deep pit, throwing the dwarf out and killing him/her, but that will also spill the contents making the system not work. So, suspend disbelief on that, please. They will never ride carts unless instructed. But the track tunnels will be physically impossible to traverse. Further, there can be no line-of-sight contact - so no looking down a tunnel and seeing another bunker. Dwarves cannot know where to send their spores to. I'm going to combine a few skills in this, most notably the medical skills. That's going to be one of the hardest to do, and it doesn't make in-game sense to separate them out, so the doctors will cover all 6 of them simultaneously.
2) To the maximum extent possible/reasonable, the fortress will self-sustain. Plants will grow and be automatically hauled to be sent to the millers/threshers/brewers who will process them and send them to the dyers/cooks. Roasts will be cooked and the roasts and booze automatically distributed around the fortress. Jobs will need to repeat or be queued, melt/dig/chop tree/gather plant manually designated, but the hauling should be entirely hands-off. This also means that stone need to be renewable.
3) It is important to keep the scholars happy - so masterwork everything. Moods satisfied. Favorite beverages stocked. Hopefully this will be where the micromanagement happens and not really anywhere else. The clothing changes will be tricky since everyone needs a stockpile of clothes now.
4) Migrating dwarves need a separate entrance to avoid contacting the founders. They need to go into isolation rooms until they can be evaluated for evil traits, and then allowed to move to their bunkers without contact with others. There need to be enough isolation rooms for a migrant wave - which can get VERY large now. I intend to mod the children to be able to do some labors - simply in an effort to get them into isolation. If I can get them to pull levers, that should be enough. Otherwise they're children.
5) I intend to export all unusable finished goods from the fortress, even gifting if needed.

I'm looking for input on some of these skill efforts. Medical will the the worst. It's going to be tough repeatedly injuring (but not killing!) one of their children or each other, so that they can practice healing. Pressure plate spike trap? Intentional minecart accidents? What is both automated and sustainable and as humane as possible? Can this even be done? Same with trapping, which was so much of a PITA that I nearly gave up during Morul. Milking, thankfully, will be easy now - protecting the maggots from Moruls appetite was maddening. And the extracting skills threaten to extinct populations. Can we use renewable creatures for that? Can we mod chickens to do fish extraction? With Morul I had to mod turtles or frogs to do that - but it was only possible with vermin. I do have 3 full cavern layers to exploit for this, assuming I can secure them. If there's a giant lake down there, I may not be able to pump it out and fortify it enough against swimming FBs. I turned the water/cavern setting down in worldgen, so there should be some water, but not much, but I don't know for sure yet.


This is basically a hybrid of Morul, a hermit challenge, and a self-sustaining challenge, all in one fort. I'm slightly worried what I've set myself to here.

[Morpha]

Oh man, this is EXACTLY what I've been trying to work out. I wanted to do this but I'm not experienced enough to know all the tricks that might make it work. Minecarts sound like a useful  method to keep them isolated, going to follow this thread.

[ignatzami]

The layout wouldn't be terribly difficult. Given that you have a large embark, and minecarts.

I propose you group industries by z-level. Using a 4x4 pod layout, with one pod being storage, one workshops, one dining, one bedrooms.

Pods would be linked, to the minecarts, and to the migrant holding area by a single air-locked hall.

I'm curious how far you could get in a completely vanilla world.

Does achieving a skill via mood count?

Skill List

Miner
Miner

Woodworker
Bowyer
Carpenter
Wood cutter

Stoneworker
Engraver
Mason

Ranger
Ambusher
Animal caretaker
Animal dissector
Animal trainer
Trapper

Doctor
Bone doctor
Crutch-walker
Diagnostician
Surgeon
Suturer
Wound dresser

Farmer
Beekeeper
Brewer
Butcher
Cheese maker
Cook
Dyer
Grower
Herbalist
Lye maker
Milker
Miller
Potash maker
Presser
Shearer
Soaper
Spinner
Tanner
Thresher
Wood burner

Fishery worker
Fish cleaner
Fish dissector
Fisherdwarf

Metalsmithing
Armorsmith
Furnace operator
Metal crafter
Blacksmith|Metalsmith
Weaponsmith

Jeweler
Gem cutter
Gem setter

Craftsdwarf
Bone carver
Clothier
Glassmaker
Glazer
Leatherworker
Potter
Stone crafter
Strand extractor
Wax worker
Weaver
Wood crafter

Engineer
Mechanic
Pump operator
Siege engineer
Siege operator

Other Jobs
Alchemy|Alchemist
Knapper
Swimmer

Administrator
Appraiser
Building designer
Organizer
Record keeper

Military
Archer
Armor user
Axeman
Biter
Blowgunner
Bowman
Crossbowman
Dodger
Fighter
Hammerman
Kicker
Knife user
Lasher
Maceman
Misc. object user
Pikeman
Shield user
Spearman
Striker
Swordsman
Thrower
Wrestler

Broker
Comedian
Conversationalist
Flatterer
Intimidator
Judge of intent
Liar
Negotiator
Persuader

Miscellaneous
Concentration
Consoler
Leader
Observer
Pacifier
Reader
Student
Teacher

I see the Medical, Broker, and some of the military skills being almost impossible to get to legendary without modding. Given the speed at which you can fish an embark bare I'd question if the fishing skills are possible as well.

[Martin]

Well, with Morul under 40d skills/maps, I could have gotten everything but fish dissecting (moghoppers are pretty rare - savage biome, only appear in summer), strand extracting (not enough adamantine on 40d maps, but .34 maps might if you get lucky - assuming you can deal with the clowns you'll inevitably release). Trapping, milking (could only milk purring maggots, which had to be trapped from chasms), animal dissection were all done by the rules - and I believe I'm the only person ever to do those to legendary. They were insanely hard and time consuming. Hunting was hard, and I modded things to make it slightly easier, but it could have been done regardless. I plan on doing it here without modding because skills can be worked on in parallel - it'll still take ages, though. Trapping, animal dissection, fish dissection, and strand extracting will still be difficult. The first two possibly more difficult than in 40d, we'll see. I'll mod in a suitably hard reaction for strands. I'm thinking of having nether caps give up strands.


Of the new skills, all should be straightforward except for medicine. With a normal fort, it wouldn't be so bad as you have one doctor take care of all of the patients in a maximally efficient setup - and just keep throwing military at invaders until they reach legendary. But here, there's no outside contact for the doctor - only family contact.


I think what you might be missing in the layout is that booze, food, clothes, all need to be deliverable to everyone from those bunkers, in addition to the usual industries. In order to distribute mood items, all input materials to some degree need to be distributable to everyone as well. Barrels, bags, bins, seeds all need to flow back up the chain. Stone goes in a zillion directions as well. Trade goods need to get spread around, and export goods up to the surface. Furniture and other requests need to go to the right bunkers - there's no formula for that. And all of the cart tracks need to auto-airlock so children don't go pathing down the tracks. Some bunkers need a well. Maybe all should in case the booze doesn't distribute. The wells need to be isolated due to contamination issues. And the wells need to autofill as well. There's almost 100 trainable skills. With a mating couple per skill, we're already at 200 dwarves, plus children. Its going to be large.

[khearn]

I think the startup is going to be very difficult. You'll need to get multiple bunkers going from very early on, with fully built tracks/airlocks right away. Morul's skills will come in handy, but I think even he will be overwhelmed with everything that has to be built before the first migrants arrive. Good luck, it will be interesting to watch.

[Puzzlemaker]

You may want to mod their speed to 0 at the start to build the bunkers really fast.

As for goods to specific bunkers; thats a little more difficult.  I assume you want to minimize haulting too.  Honestly I would suggest a round-robin type deal, where the tracks make a big loop through all of the bunkers.  When goods are needed at a certain bunker, that minecart is dumped.

I haven't played with minecarts yet, but there may be a way to automatically keep a stockpile filled with clever use of pressure plates.  I forget, can items trigger pressure plates?  If so, you could have a quantum stockpile for each type of good needed at each bunker, with a pressure plate underneath.  When a cart passes by, if the weight is below a certain threshold, it dumps the cart and the cart continues on, otherwise the cart goes to the next bunker.  Seems like a good solution, as long as you can keep enough carts in the rotation that all the bunkers get a share.  It would still be a lot of tracks though.

[Martin]

I'll limit early migrants with the popcap, and increase that when we're ready, so that's okay - even baked into the story. But even there it's not so bad. The first industries you set up are food, and you populate those and then build as we go. Making it modular enough for this approach is part of the challenge. Before long we need to breach the cavern and wall it off. There may need to be pumping involved. That needs to be staged properly with only 7 dwarves working and the risk of a FB arriving. Last thing I need is for Morul to have to face off against some nigh-unkillable thing made out of steam.

Moods do count, but you never get useful moods on the the hard stuff. Once the gobbos start coming we'll be swimming in copper and iron. I don't even know if there's iron on the map. The is flux, though - somewhere. The challenge with the moods is when the kids or farmers get them and there's no workshop in the bunker. Hmm. I may need to include a workshop in each bunker. I don't want them to build it because I want to limit the skills to only that bunker. Let them go insane? Choices…

I forgot about broker/negotiator/etc. That's impossible under the rules. I'll need to mod something in for that, or just write them off along with the social skills. Some things our intrepid scholars may need to relearn when they emerge. Hmm. Another interesting question - what happens if Morul and the founders are killed. Who will let them out or do they just keep going until some future civilization discovers them?

[ignatzami]

I see an easier solution, your military/migrant/trading dwarf pod should also be your supply depot.

All finished goods move to the central bunker, including processed meals, and drinks, empty barrels the works. When a sub-pod needs supplies you open their  cart track, the goods are loaded and the cart is shipped out.

It'll be a very large bunker, with a lot of specific stockpiles. You will also have to micro-manage your outgoing rail lines, but it's doable, and fairly straightforward.

[Martin]

I see an easier solution, your military/migrant/trading dwarf pod should also be your supply depot.

All finished goods move to the central bunker, including processed meals, and drinks, empty barrels the works. When a sub-pod needs supplies you open their  cart track, the goods are loaded and the cart is shipped out.

It'll be a very large bunker, with a lot of specific stockpiles. You will also have to micro-manage your outgoing rail lines, but it's doable, and fairly straightforward.

Yeah, I don't want to micromanage the outgoing rail lines. It's a workable solution, I agree, but I'm not sure 7 dwarves could keep up with it, along with digging out new bunkers, fighting gobbos, trade, cleanup, and so on. That 7 dwarf limitation on surface activities is also a test of the hauling system and yet another constraint on this. It keeps getting more complicated the more I think about it.

[Loud Whispers]

Posting to watch awesome thread.

[ignatzami]

I see an easier solution, your military/migrant/trading dwarf pod should also be your supply depot.

All finished goods move to the central bunker, including processed meals, and drinks, empty barrels the works. When a sub-pod needs supplies you open their  cart track, the goods are loaded and the cart is shipped out.

It'll be a very large bunker, with a lot of specific stockpiles. You will also have to micro-manage your outgoing rail lines, but it's doable, and fairly straightforward.

Why only 7 surface dwarfs? Just because?


Yeah, I don't want to micromanage the outgoing rail lines. It's a workable solution, I agree, but I'm not sure 7 dwarves could keep up with it, along with digging out new bunkers, fighting gobbos, trade, cleanup, and so on. That 7 dwarf limitation on surface activities is also a test of the hauling system and yet another constraint on this. It keeps getting more complicated the more I think about it.

[SuicideJunkie]

As for the minecart airlock scheme, what about digging a chasm or building a wall between the pods, and send the minecarts ballistically to their destinations?

[Martin]

Why only 7? 3 reasons:


1) The starting expedition is only 7 and they were selected to remain exposed to anything that should come to the fortress. The migrants that follow are being selected to be isolated underground, safe from the horribles, and to study hard, pass along knowledge, and help carry dwarven culture forward. I doubt it will stay at 7, btw. Two of the starting 7 are already lovers. Their kids will remain on the surface as well. I do almost exclusively no-immigrant fortresses, so I expect that within 25 years there will be 30-40 on the surface. I'll have to decide what to do with that. Probably will make dedicated military, etc. We'll see.
2) With 100ish skills, if this actually works, I'm expecting to have 300-400 dwarves when built out. Fewer more dwarves is going to be necessary. I'm trusting that the 'no physical means to path' rule will help keep the framerate somewhat in check.
3) When I did Morul I wanted to test the bounds of the game. Here I'm aiming for the same thing. Basically, this is a test of 'can 7 dwarves be the only general purpose haulers (other than minecarts) in a fortress of 300-400?' now that we've got different hauling algorithms and wheelbarrows and whatnot. Dunno. Gonna find out. Maybe I'll need all those kids after all.

In planning, I'm feeling a bit better about how it will all fit together. I think I have a plan for how to get migrants going in while continuing to dig out, without breaking quarantine. I'm planning on making things a bit more 'proper' than necessary - you'll see what I mean when I get there.

As for the minecart airlock scheme, what about digging a chasm or building a wall between the pods, and send the minecarts ballistically to their destinations?

Yeah, that's what it looks like I may do. A single roller on 'low' will jump a cart across a single tile pit and still make a turn immediately after it. That requires power to every cart launch though. It's only 2 power per roller, but 5 per gear and 1 per axle. It really adds up. I'm planning around 100 power per bunker, and I think that might be tight. I think we could get a single dwarf to legendary just on mechanisms to build this. 


I considered a purely manual system, but it leads to two problems:


1) Dwarves can survive short falls, so you need a sheer face up to stop them. Remember, there are children and moody dwarves to contend with - plus there will be some accidents where the cart knocks a dwarf off the ledge. The pit solves that by not giving them a way out.
2) I can do a plate/door arrangement, which I've tested. It works flawlessly, but I'm working on the assumption that a dwarf could wander through the doorway in the 100 ticks after it opens and then wander through a 2nd one farther down the track, even if there is no continuous path. I'm also working on the assumption that a tantruming dwarf could destroy the door, even though I'm pretty sure they can't.


I could do a hill/pit arrangement, but getting all of the timing/speed issues right is tricky. The roller/pit is 100% consistent, and leaves not much room for error. Lots of mechanical bits to sort out, though, and an epic power plant is needed. The transport system and related infrastructure is likely going to take up a lot more space than the bunkers themselves will, so this needs to be somewhat contained. And it needs to be bulletproof.