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Author Topic: minimum population ignores pop_cap  (Read 8154 times)

vjek

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Re: minimum population ignores pop_cap
« Reply #15 on: May 30, 2012, 05:50:10 pm »

Since there has been a lot of misinformation thrown about in this thread here is the fast and simple way that the population cap in the init settings works.
1)First two waves are hardcoded and are not affected by the cap. Even if every other dwarf in the universe is dead, you will still get the first two waves.
2)When the diplomat leaves your fortress he reports your current population to the mountain homes. This means that if your diplomat dies in horrible ways before he can leave then migrants will keep coming. The diplomat has to make it out alive to stop the migrants.
3)If your current population is larger then the population cap, then the mountain homes will no longer send migrants out. If the mountain homes is far enough away from your current fort, you may still get another migrant wave or two that were "traveling" before the diplomat left but had not yet reached your fortress.
4)A population cap of 0 is ignored. Set it to 1 if you don't want migrants.
5)Population cap does not affect current births in your fortress. That is what the child cap is for.

What this means: You are going to get at least 2 migrant waves. Kill them if you want, but there is nothing you can do about it. The diplomat has to make it to your fort, talk to your leader, and leaver to stop the migrants. Let him do this at least once after your population has reached the cap. It will take a year or two before migrants stop showing up after the diplomat leaves.

Some further testing I've done in the past week with 34.10 on this topic.

I've removed the [ACTIVE:SEASON] entry for dwarves in entity_default.txt in the raws.  This prevents caravans and the outpost liaison/diplomat from ever visiting the fort.  Not even once.  Never ever. Never.

With that, I've generated three completely new worlds, and three completely new forts, one per world.  One with a population cap of zero, one with a population cap of 7, and one with a population cap of 90.

I've then run the fort for 3 years, post embark, to see what the migrant waves will do, and what the resulting population will be.

The results are:  Two waves of migrants came to the fort, and then all migration waves stopped.  This resulted in 17, 22, and 18 total populations, respectively, after three seasons passed, post-embark.  For the remaining 9 seasons, each season displayed "The fortress attracted no migrants this season" and everything else worked as usual/normal/expected.

So while it is true you will always get two migrant waves after embarking, I have not observed that the migration waves will continue after that, if the outpost liaison/diplomat never visits the fortress.

Similarly, in an earlier fort, I had a population cap of 60.  I let the outpost liaison visit once, during the first year, disabled him, and I received migrants up to a population of exactly 60, and then the migration waves stopped.  No further visit was required to stop the migration waves.

I look forward to confirmation or denial of these results in 34.10, if anyone is inclined.

i2amroy

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Re: minimum population ignores pop_cap
« Reply #16 on: May 30, 2012, 05:53:34 pm »

Interesting. Certainly a valuable find! :D
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Kongquistador

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Re: minimum population ignores pop_cap
« Reply #17 on: May 30, 2012, 07:14:55 pm »

Nice Vjek, helpful research.  The next question seems to be (apologies if you did this and i overlooked) whether in the zero population_cap game a new wave of migrants comes, perhaps after several seasons of no migrants, when you reduce the population back down below some number.  The hypothesis from the OP seems to be effectively that in addition to the two hard-coded waves in the first two seasons, more migrants are hard-coded to appear if population falls below X dwarves. 

A quick crowd source might help here: For those who prefer to play small fortresses (under, say, 20 dwarves) what population do you prefer to play out, and do you get regular migrants?
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vjek

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Re: minimum population ignores pop_cap
« Reply #18 on: May 30, 2012, 07:16:37 pm »

Nice Vjek, helpful research.  The next question seems to be (apologies if you did this and i overlooked) whether in the zero population_cap game a new wave of migrants comes, perhaps after several seasons of no migrants, when you reduce the population back down below some number.  The hypothesis from the OP seems to be effectively that in addition to the two hard-coded waves in the first two seasons, more migrants are hard-coded to appear if population falls below X dwarves. 
 ...

Good question, I'll go wipe some out and see if I get replacements. :)

EDIT:  Two seasons passed after I went from 17 population to 11, and both seasons resulted in:
The fortress attracted no migrants this season.

EDIT2:  Reducing the population down to 4 from 17 attracted no migrants.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2012, 07:50:11 pm by vjek »
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knutor

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Re: minimum population ignores pop_cap
« Reply #19 on: May 30, 2012, 08:55:57 pm »

Why not generate a region without the civ requirement check, and limit the mountains suchthat no dwarf civilizations would occur.  Would that produce endless world generation errors, or a world with no migrants?  No mountainhomes = No migrants, right?  And then the players don't need to adjust the pop_cap, inbetween sessions.
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Finn

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Re: minimum population ignores pop_cap
« Reply #20 on: May 30, 2012, 09:49:03 pm »

I am currently running a fort with population 2 and POPULATION_CAP:0.  The liaison has just left, it is currently winter.  Seeing what transpires in the spring...

EDIT:  Migrants in the spring!  Vjek, can you bring your population to 2 and wait for the liaison and see if you continue to get migrations the following year?  Wait, are you still playing with Winter disabled?  I never see the message about attracting no migrants.

I am going to retry in a little while with a population 3 fort.

Edit:  Based on vjek's findings, I now suspect that 4 is the magic number where population_cap is respected.  That would be the minimum number to have 2 couples, which is the minimum requirement for a growing fort.  (Just trying to get into Toady's head.)

Edit:

Test 2:
DF 34.07, DFHack, DwarfTherapist
Starting Year, 262
POPULATION_CAP:0
Population 7

ha = "horrible accident"

262
Summer: migrants - population 9, SAVEPOINT A, ha - pop 2
Autumn: migrants - population 9, ha - pop 2, Liaison arrives and leaves
Winter: no migrants

263
Spring: migrants - pop 8, ha - pop 2
Summer: migrants - pop 9, ha - pop 2
Autumn: migrants - pop 8, ha - pop 2, liaison arrives
Winter: no migrants, liaison leaves

264
Spring: migrants - pop 9

Conclusion:  With a population of 2, POPULATION_CAP is ignored and migrations continue.

Tomorrow I will determine what the magic number is where POPULATION_CAP is honored again.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2012, 01:36:57 am by Finn »
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Finn

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Re: minimum population ignores pop_cap
« Reply #21 on: May 30, 2012, 10:15:14 pm »

Why not generate a region without the civ requirement check, and limit the mountains suchthat no dwarf civilizations would occur.  Would that produce endless world generation errors, or a world with no migrants?  No mountainhomes = No migrants, right?  And then the players don't need to adjust the pop_cap, inbetween sessions.

Current common knowledge holds that a world without a dwarf civilization will produce no migrants beyond the initial 2 waves.  I have never verified this myself but I do not doubt it.  Players would not need to adjust the pop_cap to prevent migrants, this is true, but they also would not receive dwarven caravans.  If you want the caravans and not the migrants you will need to adjust population_cap.
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vjek

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Re: minimum population ignores pop_cap
« Reply #22 on: May 31, 2012, 11:42:39 am »

Yesterday I brought it down to 3 population (poor insane dorf died of thirst) and still nada.  No migrants, and the message every season the fort attracted none.  Unfortunately, I didn't save the fort in that state. :|

Yes, all of my testing for this thread, up to this post, was done with NO [ACTIVE_SEASON]'S of any kind, no liaisons of any kind, no caravans of any kind.

I'll test the "no dwarves in the world" theory today.  Once with zero pop cap, and once with 90, and see if I get different results.  This time I'll allow the liaison and caravans. (I'll put back the standard [ACTIVE_SEASON:AUTUMN] for dwarves in entity_default.txt)

Finn

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Re: minimum population ignores pop_cap
« Reply #23 on: May 31, 2012, 11:46:59 am »

I wonder what else Active Season might control.  You haven't mentioned sieges, are you seeing sieges?
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vjek

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Re: minimum population ignores pop_cap
« Reply #24 on: May 31, 2012, 12:00:02 pm »

I wonder what else Active Season might control.  You haven't mentioned sieges, are you seeing sieges?

Yep.  From goblins, for example, I saw a baby snatcher, then ambushes, then sieges within the first year. (the normal path of escalation)  All other aspects of the game appear normal, just no liaison and no caravans.  However, I should note, goblins have their default ACTIVE_SEASON entries.  The only ACTIVE_SEASON I removed was for dwarves. 
I have not tested removing goblin ACTIVE_SEASON to see if sieges stop.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2012, 12:01:36 pm by vjek »
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Finn

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Re: minimum population ignores pop_cap
« Reply #25 on: May 31, 2012, 12:54:25 pm »

I wonder what else Active Season might control.  You haven't mentioned sieges, are you seeing sieges?

Yep.  From goblins, for example, I saw a baby snatcher, then ambushes, then sieges within the first year. (the normal path of escalation)  All other aspects of the game appear normal, just no liaison and no caravans.  However, I should note, goblins have their default ACTIVE_SEASON entries.  The only ACTIVE_SEASON I removed was for dwarves. 
I have not tested removing goblin ACTIVE_SEASON to see if sieges stop.

I think we are safe in concluding that the ACTIVE_SEASON mod trumps everything, preventing liaison, migrants and caravans.  You might want to update the wiki for those subjects to include this information.
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vjek

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Re: minimum population ignores pop_cap
« Reply #26 on: May 31, 2012, 03:25:32 pm »

Ok, so with a pop_cap of 90, ACTIVE_SEASON:WINTER enabled for dwarves, and No dwarves showing up in worldgen (civ was destroyed by goblins: Civilized World Population |   62872 Goblins in world_sites_and_pops.txt)

The results are:
migrant wave in summer (3)
migrant wave in autumn (4)
liaison & caravan visit in winter
migrant wave in spring (of 19 dwarves)
migrant wave in summer (of 9 dwarves)

I am reasonably confident this would continue up to the population cap, as other tests have shown.

The important point is, with NO DWARVES showing up in worldgen, migrants waves still arrive as expected, after the visit of the liaison.  They are apparently generated as necessary, to satisfy the needs of the fort.  In the (c) screen, the dwarven civ listed there "has no important leaders".

Finn

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Re: minimum population ignores pop_cap
« Reply #27 on: May 31, 2012, 03:37:42 pm »

Now THAT definitely defies current understanding.  Are you sure there are no dwarves?  Where does it say the liaison is coming from?
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vjek

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Re: minimum population ignores pop_cap
« Reply #28 on: May 31, 2012, 03:58:19 pm »

Now THAT definitely defies current understanding.  Are you sure there are no dwarves?  Where does it say the liaison is coming from?
It lists a civ, it just has no dwarves (or any humanoids) in it, just animals.  zero dwarves, 100% for sure, listed in world_sites_and_pops.txt.

Someone else should definitely try to reproduce this, if it's an unexpected.

FuzzyZergling

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Re: minimum population ignores pop_cap
« Reply #29 on: May 31, 2012, 04:09:40 pm »

Wait, I thought that if you civ was dead, you don't get caravans/liasons?
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