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Author Topic: StarForge, Anyone tried it?  (Read 44520 times)

Sordid

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Re: StarForge, Anyone tried it?
« Reply #30 on: May 31, 2012, 10:43:06 am »

Sorry, I just can't stand it when people argue and misquote wikipedia articles and claim to be experts instead of actually educating themselves. That's something I don't understand, I love it when I'm proven wrong because that means I've learned something. But no, the underlying logic is called a volumetric dataset. And the game doesn't use that for its terrain, only for the blocks that you place. The terrain in the demo is just ordinary polygon terrain as seen in any other game.

Also, fun thing to do: Dig straight down at the spawn point! :D
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hemmingjay

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Re: StarForge, Anyone tried it?
« Reply #31 on: May 31, 2012, 10:49:20 am »

Sordid, can you help me out with this? I am confused because you are stating it is not Voxel based and is polygon instead, but the wikipedia article(and a few other sources) state:
"A volume containing voxels can be visualized either by direct volume rendering or by the extraction of polygon iso-surfaces which follow the contours of given threshold values."

I'm sure it's just me having a hard time wrapping my head around it as I am not a developer, but the terms and explanations seem to me to describe exactly what they are doing. How am I wrong? Thanks!

Edit: I am genuinely curious!
« Last Edit: May 31, 2012, 10:52:24 am by hemmingjay »
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Drakale

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Re: StarForge, Anyone tried it?
« Reply #32 on: May 31, 2012, 10:58:30 am »

Quote
The terrain in the demo is just ordinary polygon terrain as seen in any other game.

Ordinary polygon terrain do not deform that easily, they have some sort of algorithm that create a volumetric rendering using polygons. I admit you might have a point that voxels are not quite the right term for that, even if the wiki cites it as an example.
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alway

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Re: StarForge, Anyone tried it?
« Reply #33 on: May 31, 2012, 11:03:14 am »

But no, the underlying logic is called a volumetric dataset.
Voxels ARE that volumetric dataset. Voxels exist in a 3 dimensional regular grid; volumetric. Voxels are a way of representing the data in that space; dataset.
And the game doesn't use that for its terrain, only for the blocks that you place. The terrain in the demo is just ordinary polygon terrain as seen in any other game.
Again, false. The terrain in the game is not heightmap-based, but is based on the voxel system using what appears (based on playing around in the underground with the dig tool) to be marching cubes to render it.
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nenjin

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Re: StarForge, Anyone tried it?
« Reply #34 on: May 31, 2012, 11:04:22 am »

Maybe this discussion would be better suited to one of the programmer's threads.

Game looks neat. Never got into MC, but being that this is F2P, I'll be trying it out at some point.
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Sordid

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Re: StarForge, Anyone tried it?
« Reply #35 on: May 31, 2012, 11:09:44 am »

Sordid, can you help me out with this? I am confused because you are stating it is not Voxel based and is polygon instead, but the wikipedia article(and a few other sources) state:
"A volume containing voxels can be visualized either by direct volume rendering or by the extraction of polygon iso-surfaces which follow the contours of given threshold values."

I'm sure it's just me having a hard time wrapping my head around it as I am not a developer, but the terms and explanations seem to me to describe exactly what they are doing. How am I wrong? Thanks!

That just means that you can take the data set and render it as voxels (see the above posted Voxelstein video for an example of what that looks like) or you can convert it to polygons and render that. The point is that a voxel is a way of rendering that data. The StarForge video mentions that they have a voxel engine. That would mean actually having voxels on the screen. They may use some kind of volumetric data set for their terrain that they convert to polygons in order to render it, but that doesn't make it a voxel engine. But yeah, like others have said already, that's semantics.

It would actually be really awesome to have a proper voxel engine in a game like this, since voxels are much more suitable for terrain that you can dig into than polygons. See the Atomontage engine demo for a fantastic example example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2qkne-EOG8

Voxels ARE that volumetric dataset. Voxels exist in a 3 dimensional regular grid; volumetric. Voxels are a way of representing the data in that space; dataset.

You're contradicting yourself. So what is a voxel? The data or its representation? It can't be both.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2012, 11:17:58 am by Sordid »
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justinlee999

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Re: StarForge, Anyone tried it?
« Reply #36 on: May 31, 2012, 11:38:22 am »

need a new set of pants, brb.
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Trapezohedron

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Re: StarForge, Anyone tried it?
« Reply #37 on: May 31, 2012, 11:44:03 am »

Holy sh!t. A semi-RTS, minecraft-warcraft-halo inspired, infinite height-limit game with futuristic guns and survival mode?!

This is awesome!

Now, to ask a question: does this have multiplayer in its current state? LAN multiplayer, to be specific.
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Sordid

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Re: StarForge, Anyone tried it?
« Reply #38 on: May 31, 2012, 11:48:58 am »

No. It doesn't even have a main menu. Or a loading screen. Or anything beyond about a kilometer of terrain floating in a void inside a skybox.
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Aklyon

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Re: StarForge, Anyone tried it?
« Reply #39 on: May 31, 2012, 12:07:50 pm »

No. It doesn't even have a main menu. Or a loading screen. Or anything beyond about a kilometer of terrain floating in a void inside a skybox.
For a first playable demo, thats not entirely bad. Its kinda how Kinetic Viod is, but with less space building and shootery and more terrestrial building and possibly shootery.
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alway

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Re: StarForge, Anyone tried it?
« Reply #40 on: May 31, 2012, 12:10:53 pm »

Voxels ARE that volumetric dataset. Voxels exist in a 3 dimensional regular grid; volumetric. Voxels are a way of representing the data in that space; dataset.

You're contradicting yourself. So what is a voxel? The data or its representation? It can't be both.
It means the same thing in this context. To say anything 'is' the data isn't entirely accurate; to say it 'represents' the data is more accurate, as everything in a computer is just bits representing data under the correct interpretation. But that's just semantics; no actual difference. If I had said visualization, that would be another story, as that is the correct term when talking about what gets shown to the user.

For example, research paper in which voxels are used as the data structure: http://www2.tech.purdue.edu/cgt/Facstaff/bbenes/private/papers/Benes06JVVW.pdf
Note the visuals used to display said voxels: marching cubes is used to visualize it as polygons.
Even in the atomontage engine you linked, it refers, on their dev pages, to voxels as the data structure, which is then rendered using some technique (it describes a comparison of a couple ways here)
Voxels are not the system used to visualize data; they are the data structure storing it.

They are visualized with either a raycasting based system, typically involving octrees or other spatial partitioning methods (any engine with massive quantities of tiny voxels), or polygons, typically using marching cubes algorithm, though sometimes just using cubes (engines with large voxels).
Methods involving spatial partitioning have a time complexity approaching O(log(n)), while polygon methods will have a higher time complexity which varies based on the particular implementation, but is likely between O(log(n)) and O(n). The difference between the two being the mathematical theory behind picking the correct voxel's data to use when rendering to a given pixel. The spatial partitioning method aims to pick only the single correct voxel, while the polygon method renders all of them, and lets the graphics pipeline sort out where they are on screen and which are closest to the camera. The raycasting method is what you have been calling 'voxel rendering,' but that just isn't accurate. Both raycasting and polygonal methods are adequate for visualizing voxels, though like most of programming there are situations for which you would choose one over the other. The spatial partitioning-friendly raycasting method is in general good for massive quantities of voxels, as it has a lower time complexity. Polygons are better for small quantities of voxels because it is generally faster for those.
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Trapezohedron

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Re: StarForge, Anyone tried it?
« Reply #41 on: May 31, 2012, 12:14:31 pm »

No. It doesn't even have a main menu. Or a loading screen. Or anything beyond about a kilometer of terrain floating in a void inside a skybox.
For a first playable demo, thats not entirely bad. Its kinda how Kinetic Viod is, but with less space building and shootery and more terrestrial building and possibly shootery.

True. It is okay, for a first release. I mean, it is a first release, after all. Will test it, probably, regardless of multiplayer or not.

Was just asking about it, because it would be fun to play with my brother in that game.
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Levi

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Re: StarForge, Anyone tried it?
« Reply #42 on: May 31, 2012, 12:14:39 pm »

Also, Its free.

Its also going to use the F2P business model.  :(  I was interested until I saw that.
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Mephansteras

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Re: StarForge, Anyone tried it?
« Reply #43 on: May 31, 2012, 12:14:58 pm »

More cool looking games. Just what I need....

Why can't I be rich and play games all day long?
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Aklyon

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Re: StarForge, Anyone tried it?
« Reply #44 on: May 31, 2012, 12:16:46 pm »

Also, Its free.

Its also going to use the F2P business model.  :(  I was interested until I saw that.
Whats wrong with F2P?
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It's known as the Oppai-Kaiju effect. The islands of Japan generate a sort anti-gravity field, which allows breasts to behave as if in microgravity. It's also what allows Godzilla and friends to become 50 stories tall, and lets ninjas run up the side of a skyscraper.
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