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[Josephus]

Okay, also, I've been away from the forum for approximately a year and a half. What, pray tell, is the incident?

[Scelly9]

PM'd you, lets change the topic.

[UltraValican]

I like the first part(minus the hide bonus, DF isn't about making X impervious because letting the player kill it be "wrong". Also the "+5 carving knives of killing" would make the game horribly broken, Night Creatures carry carving knives too.
Also, I doubt Toady cares if people make their own incedents, as long as the brag about it on the forums.

Actually I have a good reason for the hide bonus, it's realistic!  Children are small so they can fit in places adults can't go, climb trees that would break under an adults weight, and even pass unnoticed in a bush an adult would be vislible in.

  As for the modified carving knives being broken, they already are! Also since Toady had time to test them, and that was the first release after a big post where people were exchanging tips on how to duplicate Obok Meatgod's modding, I think they were intended to be broken!

  After all he nerfed the price on mermaid bones didn't he!  I personally find mermaid farming much less objectionable than the incident.  I don't think it's a coincidence that every peasant now has a chance to kill a non-modded demigod, I just think Toady didn't take into account people can mod in the ability to start with admantine plate, or as a bronze collossus.

Except changing object values is a moot point if people are already modding creatures. Carving Knives can be erased from the game with a simple click, adding gentiles takes a little more know how. If Toady wanted to limit what people could mod he would have added some language filter to DF's coding. Again, "nerfing" most things in an easily moddable game is a very moot point. I do like the idea of kids hiding in bushes(makes it a lot more satisfying when I can flush em out with brush fires ,but I'm hardly the guy to go ape shit on a civ).
Mermaid bone prices were nerfed but it would still be near impossible to harvest them now anyway( corpses leave skeletons now, not just bone "piles").

/on topic
I'll wait till Toady gives the elves some purdy tree cities. Can't have an artist rush his work now can we, we wan't those elven settle ments to have all the fixings.

[Courtesy Arloban]

Except changing object values is a moot point if people are already modding creatures. Carving Knives can be erased from the game with a simple click, adding gentiles takes a little more know how. If Toady wanted to limit what people could mod he would have added some language filter to DF's coding. Again, "nerfing" most things in an easily moddable game is a very moot point. I do like the idea of kids hiding in bushes(makes it a lot more satisfying when I can flush em out with brush fires ,but I'm hardly the guy to go ape shit on a civ).
Mermaid bone prices were nerfed but it would still be near impossible to harvest them now anyway( corpses leave skeletons now, not just bone "piles").

/on topic
I'll wait till Toady gives the elves some purdy tree cities. Can't have an artist rush his work now can we, we wan't those elven settle ments to have all the fixings.

  Adding genitals like the lust demon mod is a somewhat hard task if you don't just copy them from another mod.  However not every modder knows everything about the raws!  Suddenly having a stab attack that does major damage on every weapon in vanilla would please most players(because first you think about how you're going to use it to shiv some colossus.), such that they might not notice that a humble tool has a tweaked "+5 stab attack".  And many people would not immediately figure out that it will pass right through their platemail.  And if you remove the broken carving knife from the raws, peasants have daggers instead, and trying to disarm them completely can lead to the player having no weapon other than a sharpened rock themselves.

Also a spare knife can be hardcoded in as so many containers already are!

[bombzero]

so...from what I understand... you want to add a super weapon to the game that completely nullifies all point of any armor what so ever?

you are aware that peasants will also attach you if say... you have killed a member of the civ's military (even with the new personalities, im sure some peasants will still attack).

but yeah, sure, lets totally add more weapons that are completely fucking broken from any realistic standpoint in the world. [/sarcasm] as if we didn't have a few already.

basically, your idea makes playing adventure mode more frustrating, as a random peasant who you didn't even know was angry at you, can step up and one shot you through a masterwork steel helm.

[Bulwersator]

Actually it would help if children(and other non-military) would run away(and hide with a bonus) from their civilizations enemies, instead of running toward them.

Toady is doing this right now - http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/

[Courtesy Arloban]

so...from what I understand... you want to add a super weapon to the game that completely nullifies all point of any armor what so ever?

you are aware that peasants will also attach you if say... you have killed a member of the civ's military (even with the new personalities, im sure some peasants will still attack).

but yeah, sure, lets totally add more weapons that are completely fucking broken from any realistic standpoint in the world. [/sarcasm] as if we didn't have a few already.

basically, your idea makes playing adventure mode more frustrating, as a random peasant who you didn't even know was angry at you, can step up and one shot you through a masterwork steel helm.

No, I'm not adding(or even suggesting adding) a super broken weapon to the game.  It's already in the game!

I'm suggesting a realistic stab attack to be added to all weapons, and according to the devlogs Toady's working on that in the next release too!  The velocity modifier is actually on the low side of estimates between the difference in speed of thrusting vs. slashing.  The low contact area is a estimate based on a cross-section of a sword vs. blade length(with a carving knife having a smaller blade than a sword that makes for a very sharp point), and making it a blunt attack is exploiting the bug in whips to simulate penetration damage to a body.(it doesn't just go through armor, it goes through skin, muscle, organs, bone!)

The fact that it bypasses armor can be explained as the attacker stabbing through a joint in the armor, which attackers generally do.  But since Toady's adding a Stab attack to weapons, using blunt is no longer neccessary or recommended.

Also a peasant being able to one-shot you through a masterwork great helm is a realistic scenario.  Armored knights have died in the real world from being stabbed through their visor!  You have less to worry about that in the game, though as the AI picks an attack from the weapon randomly.  And you can use the same attack with your weapon to stab a bronze colossus.

  About the only unrealistic thing about a peasant one-shot killing you is the peasant attacking you without fear of the consequences, and the very first part of my first post in this topic was suggesting that children actually run away from enemies to their civ, the same could be done for all non-combatants if towns are given some kind of militia standing by.  Keep in mind that the same Stab attack given to a pike is even more lethal.

[Josephus]

I'm suggesting a realistic stab attack to be added to all weapons, and according to the devlogs Toady's working on that in the next release too!  The velocity modifier is actually on the low side of estimates between the difference in speed of thrusting vs. slashing.  The low contact area is a estimate based on a cross-section of a sword vs. blade length(with a carving knife having a smaller blade than a sword that makes for a very sharp point), and making it a blunt attack is exploiting the bug in whips to simulate penetration damage to a body.(it doesn't just go through armor, it goes through skin, muscle, organs, bone!)

The fact that it bypasses armor can be explained as the attacker stabbing through a joint in the armor, which attackers generally do.  But since Toady's adding a Stab attack to weapons, using blunt is no longer neccessary or recommended.

Also a peasant being able to one-shot you through a masterwork great helm is a realistic scenario.  Armored knights have died in the real world from being stabbed through their visor!  You have less to worry about that in the game, though as the AI picks an attack from the weapon randomly.  And you can use the same attack with your weapon to stab a bronze colossus.

The thing is, your proposed stab attack would penetrate through, for example, breastplates. Which don't have joints. Probably if Toady wanted to simulate stabbing through a joint, then he would add actual joints to stab through, considering he's added individual teeth. Not to mention the fact that when armored knights died via a wound through their visor, it was usually one of two cases

a) an immensely lucky arrow shot
b) another knight or man at arms physically throwing him to the ground, grappling around for a bit, then stabbing that fuck in the eye.

A peasant managing to kill an armed and armored fighter like a professional soldier or a knight just because he has a dagger is unheard of, considering you not only need a halfway decent weapon, but also the strength to shove a weapon through the mail and padding that would be protecting the joints.

This is the whole reason half-swording was a thing. Even guys who'd spent their whole lives training to fight needed all the leverage they could get in order to penetrate through the underarmor protecting the other fellow.

[Courtesy Arloban]

I'm suggesting a realistic stab attack to be added to all weapons, and according to the devlogs Toady's working on that in the next release too!  The velocity modifier is actually on the low side of estimates between the difference in speed of thrusting vs. slashing.  The low contact area is a estimate based on a cross-section of a sword vs. blade length(with a carving knife having a smaller blade than a sword that makes for a very sharp point), and making it a blunt attack is exploiting the bug in whips to simulate penetration damage to a body.(it doesn't just go through armor, it goes through skin, muscle, organs, bone!)

The fact that it bypasses armor can be explained as the attacker stabbing through a joint in the armor, which attackers generally do.  But since Toady's adding a Stab attack to weapons, using blunt is no longer neccessary or recommended.

Also a peasant being able to one-shot you through a masterwork great helm is a realistic scenario.  Armored knights have died in the real world from being stabbed through their visor!  You have less to worry about that in the game, though as the AI picks an attack from the weapon randomly.  And you can use the same attack with your weapon to stab a bronze colossus.

The thing is, your proposed stab attack would penetrate through, for example, breastplates. Which don't have joints. Probably if Toady wanted to simulate stabbing through a joint, then he would add actual joints to stab through, considering he's added individual teeth. Not to mention the fact that when armored knights died via a wound through their visor, it was usually one of two cases

a) an immensely lucky arrow shot
b) another knight or man at arms physically throwing him to the ground, grappling around for a bit, then stabbing that fuck in the eye.

A peasant managing to kill an armed and armored fighter like a professional soldier or a knight just because he has a dagger is unheard of, considering you not only need a halfway decent weapon, but also the strength to shove a weapon through the mail and padding that would be protecting the joints.

This is the whole reason half-swording was a thing. Even guys who'd spent their whole lives training to fight needed all the leverage they could get in order to penetrate through the underarmor protecting the other fellow.

You stab someone wearing a breastplate at the neck, shoulder, or armpit, the only reason those are not considered a joint is a person wearing just a breastplate isn't wearing enough armor to have joints.  You angle the thrust and you can stab the heart or lungs.

a) an immensely lucky arrow shot
b) another knight or man at arms physically throwing him to the ground, grappling around for a bit, then stabbing that fuck in the eye.

Those two examples have enough repeated occurances in history that entire graveyards can be filled for each example seperately!

  And there are also cases that don't fit, there are armored corpses with lance-tips, axe blades, knives, and other weapons embedded in the visor found buried in ancient battlefields, and there are records of peasants drafted into an army besting knights, the weapons which they used was a footman's spear, a small hand axe, and a dagger(required to be shorter than a sword)

[Josephus]

You stab someone wearing a breastplate at the neck, shoulder, or armpit, the only reason those are not considered a joint is a person wearing just a breastplate isn't wearing enough armor to have joints.

a) an immensely lucky arrow shot
b) another knight or man at arms physically throwing him to the ground, grappling around for a bit, then stabbing that fuck in the eye.

Those two examples have enough repeated occurances in history that entire graveyards can be filled for each example seperately!

  And there are also cases that don't fit, there are armored corpses with lance-tips, axe blades, knives, and other weapons embedded in the visor found buried in ancient battlefields, and there are records of peasants drafted into an army besting knights, the weapons which they used was a footman's spear, a small hand axe, and a dagger(required to be shorter than a sword)

Armored corpses with lance tips and axe blades in their visor plate make perfect sense. Axes are mass weapons with wedge shaped heads, against armor they were basically like flanged maces except slightly less effective. To get the most out of your axe, you would need an overhand swing, or if you were mounted you could afford a side swing. Now as for lance tips in visors - consider that the primary use of the lance was on the massed cavalry charge, typically directed at infantry formations. The head is a prime target for a man-at-arms on a horse charging a man-at-arms on foot.

As for records of peasants being drafted into an army besting knights - don't make too much of it. In the first place, the 'peasant army' is mostly a Victorian era myth, perpetuated by terrible writers like TH White, or a product of the "dark ages", where limited power bases meant limited pools from which to draw one's soldiers. In that earlier period, 'knights' as you know them didn't really exist, nor did most helmets have 'visors'. The most technically complex heavy armor available was chain mail, unlike the ubiquitous plate armor that arose during the later middle ages.

Armies were composed of professional soldiers - mercenaries - or wealthy commoners with tools intended to kill - the footman's spear you mention is just as likely to have been a bill or some other kind of pole arm, specifically meant to defeat armor and cavalry, and they were armored, while more lightly, just like other the men-at-arms.

As an aside, I'll address this point:

You stab someone wearing a breastplate at the neck, shoulder, or armpit, the only reason those are not considered a joint is a person wearing just a breastplate isn't wearing enough armor to have joints.

Someone wearing a breastplate is probably also wearing a gorget or an aventail, as well as spaulders or pauldrons. Sure, you could stab someone in the armpit - but they also wear underarmor, padding and mail, specifically to cover up joints. This is why I mentioned halfswording: to successfully kill someone with an armpit stab, yoou either need tremendous luck or you need to grasp your sword by the blade and shove it through the other guy's underarmor.

[Courtesy Arloban]

Someone wearing a breastplate is probably also wearing a gorget or an aventail, as well as spaulders or pauldrons.

Armor layers in the game are exactly what you are wearing. You have the option to wear leather or chainmail under plate or mail, do you?  If someone has the foresight to wear layered armor in the game, then they have reason to call foul.

 Also your adventurer is not a trained professional soldier or knight, until you mod in a mercenary or knight position and a way to appoint your adventurer a mercenary or knight!  If you want a knight as your background it should come with duties and responsibilities, like in pendragon.

 You start out with a set of skills you bought with points from being a peasant, hero, or demigod, and you learn more weapon use with practice.

It's funny that in a thread started about what bastards elves are for thinking they are so much better than everyone, that's the same attitude that people have toward (their fellow) peasants.

As for records of peasants being drafted into an army besting knights - don't make too much of it. In the first place, the 'peasant army' is mostly a Victorian era myth, perpetuated by terrible writers like TH White, or a product of the "dark ages", where limited power bases meant limited pools from which to draw one's soldiers.

I'm talking about court records more specifically geneological records, not some writers war accounts.

[Josephus]

Armor layers in the game are exactly what you are wearing.

If someone has the foresight to wear layered armor in the game, then they have reason to call foul. Also your adventurer is not a trained professional soldier or knight, until you mod in a mercenary or knight position and a way to appoint your adventurer a mercenary or knight!  You start out with a set of skills you bought with points from being a peasant, hero, or demigod, and you learn more weapon use with practice.

If you want a knight as your background it should come with duties and responsibilities, like in pendragon.  It's funny that in a thread started about what bastards elves are for thinking they are so much better than everyone, that's the same attitude that people have toward (their fellow) peasants.

None of which has anything to do with the issue at hand. I brought up the man-at-arms and knight because in full armor, they were roughly as protected as a fully armored DF adventurer is. Your proposed stab attack which 'penetrates' through joints is moot because there are no armor joints in game as of yet, and there won't be unless Toady decides to add armor weak spots (which I would approve of). The stab attack you propose is quite silly.

All of the rest was simply to counteract your wrongheaded notions of the medieval period.

[Courtesy Arloban]

Armor layers in the game are exactly what you are wearing.

If someone has the foresight to wear layered armor in the game, then they have reason to call foul. Also your adventurer is not a trained professional soldier or knight, until you mod in a mercenary or knight position and a way to appoint your adventurer a mercenary or knight!  You start out with a set of skills you bought with points from being a peasant, hero, or demigod, and you learn more weapon use with practice.

If you want a knight as your background it should come with duties and responsibilities, like in pendragon.  It's funny that in a thread started about what bastards elves are for thinking they are so much better than everyone, that's the same attitude that people have toward (their fellow) peasants.

None of which has anything to do with the issue at hand. I brought up the man-at-arms and knight because in full armor, they were roughly as protected as a fully armored DF adventurer is. Your proposed stab attack which 'penetrates' through joints is moot because there are no armor joints in game as of yet, and there won't be unless Toady decides to add armor weak spots (which I would approve of). The stab attack you propose is quite silly.

All of the rest was simply to counteract your wrongheaded notions of the medieval period.

You are completely wrong in every thing that you said there.

Armored Knights were far better protected than a fully equipped DF player, not only in wearing more layers of armor than "you" assume, but also wearing additional pieces that do not exist in vanilla DF.

Also you and the other guy are worrying about my stab attack using blunt, when I dropped that suggestion before you chose to harp about it!

The fact that it bypasses armor can be explained as the attacker stabbing through a joint in the armor, which attackers generally do.  But since Toady's adding a Stab attack to weapons, using blunt is no longer neccessary or recommended.

[Josephus]

You are wrong in every thing that you said there.

Ah, the classic defense when someone runs out of things to say: "NO U"

[Courtesy Arloban]

You are wrong in every thing that you said there.

Ah, the classic defense when someone runs out of things to say: "NO U"

When your wong your wrong, what else is there to say!

Except this:

As for records of peasants being drafted into an army besting knights - don't make too much of it. In the first place, the 'peasant army' is mostly a Victorian era myth, perpetuated by terrible writers like TH White, or a product of the "dark ages", where limited power bases meant limited pools from which to draw one's soldiers.

In modern times we do not have knights of any shape or form on the battlefeild, that is how badly they were beaten.