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Author Topic: Research: Crossbow with axe and shield.  (Read 11730 times)

Maklak

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Research: Crossbow with axe and shield.
« on: June 23, 2012, 08:31:14 am »

I use DF 31.25 with MLP mod 1.71. Basically you play as a race of intelligent horses, with unicorns having 2 grips: mouth and horn (telekinesis). Mouth is roughly equivalent to right hand and horn to left hand.

Glossary:
When you go to m->e->squad->dwarf, you have equipment list.
When you do v->i on a dwarf, you see inventory list.

I've run into an issue, where a unicorn equipped with a crossbow, axe and shield didn't fire his crossbow, despite having quiver and bolts, so I decided to do some research.

I did a lot of tests and finally figured out backup weapons, I think. The unicorn keeps weapons in the mouth and shield with horn. He has a very strong preference for the first weapon in his inventory. Therefore the correct order for equipment list is:
1) Unforbid all weapons currently in inventory.
2) Go to squads -> equipment and remove weapons and shield. Wait until dwarf empties them from inventory, and carries then all to stockpiles (about a minute).
3) Assign: Shield, Crossbow, Battle Axe in this exact order. 
The result is that he will use his crossbow and spray bolts at the enemy (Which gives him the advantage of range). Once out of ammo, or engaged, he will switch to close combat. He will use his shield, but unfortunately he will hit with his crossbow 95% of the time. The remaining 5% is what gives him an advantage over pure crossbow user.

Weapons are held in mouth and a shield is held by horn. Contrary to what some people say (maybe they talk about 0.34?) you don't need a free grip to fire a crossbow. That's why Pegasai (who only have mouth and no horn) can do it. Therefore having a shield is not a problem. The problem is that a dwarf uses the first weapon on inventory list about 95% of the time. Therefore if the dwarf equips a crossbow and an axe, what happens depends on their order. If axe is first on the inventory list, the dwarf won't fire his crossbow, and just charge into melee and use the Axe. If crossbow is first, the dwarf will fire it until he empties the quiver, then charge and use the crossbow as melee weapon. After a few pages of hitting the enemy with it, Axe will occasionally be used. Another problem with this setup is upgrading quality: A dwarf who picked up a -crossbow- and an =Axe=, then upgraded the +crossbow+, puts it at the end of his inventory list. This results in going melee with the axe.

I also found out that firing 25 wooden bolts from -crossbow- by a newb misses most of the time, barely softens the enemy up and generates 30*25 EXP for both crossbow and archer skills. With a masterwork crossbow, my test subject was able to hit much more often, despite being a newb. Silver crossbow may help a bit, but I got pages of 'Pony hits Animal with -steel crossbow-, damaging the skull, so I doubt silver will help much. Emptying a quiver at an archery target granted only 150 EXP to those skills, 5 times less.

In one 31.25 fort, I tried dual-wielding two weapons and two shields, but it resulted in weird bugs with dwarves having problems equipping terminator armour.

TL;DR: The weapon higher on the inventory list is almost always used, unless forbidden. When a dwarf upgrades equipment, the new item is at the bottom of their inventory list. You don't need a free grip to fire a crossbow. The equipment list is important in determining which items are obtained first and are therefore lower on the inventory list.

Can anyone confirm or correct my findings?
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Since you seem to criticize most things harsher than concentrated acid, I'll take that as a compliment.
On mining Organics
Military guide for FoE mod.
Research: Crossbow with axe and shield.
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Garath

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Re: Research: Crossbow with axe and shield.
« Reply #1 on: June 23, 2012, 09:20:37 am »

a similar thread on dual weapons has loud whispers saying that ordinary dwarfs have no problem at all using a weapon and a crossbow, don't know if he had a shield there too though (DF gameplay questions forum).

It might be a thing particular to your mod
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Research: Crossbow with axe and shield.
« Reply #2 on: June 23, 2012, 09:56:43 am »



Well at least now I know why my Dwarves worked and others didn't.

Garath

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Re: Research: Crossbow with axe and shield.
« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2012, 10:02:46 am »

did they claim them or also equip everything?
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Research: Crossbow with axe and shield.
« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2012, 11:26:45 am »

did they claim them or also equip everything?
Equipped all of it, and fought as Maklak described.

Aerie

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Re: Research: Crossbow with axe and shield.
« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2013, 12:07:22 am »

I have some relevant information to post here. If you're in Adventurer mode and you have an axe and a crossbow in either hand, if the axe is 'first', you cannot fire the crossbow "You don't have anything else left to fire." Presumably, the situation is same with fortress dwarves.
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goblolo

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Re: Research: Crossbow with axe and shield.
« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2013, 12:37:55 am »

The unicorn keeps weapons in the mouth and shield with horn.

best research ever!
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Naryar

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Re: Research: Crossbow with axe and shield.
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2013, 04:31:23 am »

I tend to use crossbow-hammer-shield, if only than they use the same skill  and considering there is no preference for using a strictly melee weapon in melee... yet.

Hyndis

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Re: Research: Crossbow with axe and shield.
« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2013, 02:08:20 pm »

I just added on a bayonet to my crossbows. Functionally its just a spear tip, but it lets dwarves with crossbows stab at things in melee with their bayonets in addition to bashing at them with their crossbows.
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Maklak

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Re: Research: Crossbow with axe and shield.
« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2013, 02:17:24 pm »

Quote
I just added on a bayonet to my crossbows. Functionally its just a spear tip, but it lets dwarves with crossbows stab at things in melee with their bayonets in addition to bashing at them with their crossbows.
You wouldn't be the first one; some mods had bayonet crossbows for a long time. As ridiculous as that sounds, a mod I play has a chainsaw and a ripper variants of rifles. :D
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Since you seem to criticize most things harsher than concentrated acid, I'll take that as a compliment.
On mining Organics
Military guide for FoE mod.
Research: Crossbow with axe and shield.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Research: Crossbow with axe and shield.
« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2013, 02:20:13 pm »

I just added on a bayonet to my crossbows. Functionally its just a spear tip, but it lets dwarves with crossbows stab at things in melee with their bayonets in addition to bashing at them with their crossbows.
Bayonets and crossbows do not mix well.

goblolo

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Re: Research: Crossbow with axe and shield.
« Reply #11 on: January 15, 2013, 03:34:22 am »

I just added on a bayonet to my crossbows. Functionally its just a spear tip, but it lets dwarves with crossbows stab at things in melee with their bayonets in addition to bashing at them with their crossbows.
Bayonets and crossbows do not mix well.
ok, I think one can mix crossbow with a pickaxe. Dwarves will shoot and deal significant piercing damage in melee. Also miners can mine with it!
I think, in addition, it can be modded to have long barrel, gooing far from the cross. So that it can be used as a crutch. Also, crutch-walkers must be able to shoot from them. Just imagine: axedwarf with one leg shoots runaway goblins with his crutch. I always thought it is unfair to run from crutch-walker just because he can't catch you.
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The first small thing that made me feel awesome was my indoor waterfall. A few minutes later though, it started flooding my fort so I felt less awesome.

Maklak

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Re: Research: Crossbow with axe and shield.
« Reply #12 on: January 15, 2013, 03:46:14 am »

A miner with a crossbow / mining pick wouldn't shoot because of a lack of quiver and bolts in his uniform. Drafting him might work, but I think he would use one weapon for mining and another for a weapon.
I don't know enough about modding to say if it could be used for a crutch.

I think bayonet crossbows should work fine. In melee the dwarves bash with their crossbows anyway, so a bayonet would be just another type of attack and should be used.
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Quote from: Omnicega
Since you seem to criticize most things harsher than concentrated acid, I'll take that as a compliment.
On mining Organics
Military guide for FoE mod.
Research: Crossbow with axe and shield.
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DethBrand

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Re: Research: Crossbow with axe and shield.
« Reply #13 on: January 15, 2013, 05:31:26 am »

Does this work in unmodded DF?
If possible I'd like to try to equip all my squads with at least a wooden crossbow and a low amount of bolts just to close the distance to melee with.
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Naryar

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Re: Research: Crossbow with axe and shield.
« Reply #14 on: January 15, 2013, 06:24:25 am »

I honestly think the best military dwarf ever is one with standard metal armor, a pick (and enough miner skill), a shield and a crossbow.

With enough training, these will do anything.
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