Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 [2] 3

Author Topic: Dwarves won't equip halberd  (Read 8556 times)

slink

  • Bay Watcher
  • Crazy Cat Dwarf
    • View Profile
    • Slink's Burrow Online
Re: Dwarves won't equip halberd
« Reply #15 on: June 25, 2012, 07:33:30 am »

That just controls what they can make. Dwarves can use liberated daggers and whips just fine.
Well, cool.  :)  I'd seen people talk about Dwarven lashers but I figured they were using mods.
Logged
There is only one cat, and all cats are that cat.
Almost losing is sometimes fun.

splinterz

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
    • Dwarf Therapist Branch
Re: Dwarves won't equip halberd
« Reply #16 on: June 25, 2012, 07:51:04 am »

i've tested and have the same results Sutremaine. i'd really like to get my hands on a save with a dwarf equipping a large (unmodded) weapon so i can fix up the DT weapon columns

splinterz

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
    • Dwarf Therapist Branch
Re: Dwarves won't equip halberd
« Reply #17 on: June 25, 2012, 12:22:27 pm »

i've done some testing and it would appear that the body modifiers for broadness and height have no effect on whether or not a dwarf can use a weapon. i changed the broadness and height of a dwarf to the maximum modifiers of 125, which based on Sutremaine's research would give him a body size of 93,750 cm3. his height and broadness easily cleared the minimum required size of the pike (62,500) i was trying to get him to equip but he still wouldn't equip it. after that, i also modified his strength to 2500 to see if that had any bearing on being able to equip the pike, but again he wouldn't pick it up.

unless someone has a save with a dwarf using one of these large weapons i think that nanomage is correct and the comparison is done between the base body size and the weapon sizes.

Sutremaine

  • Bay Watcher
  • [ETHIC:ATROCITY: PERSONAL_MATTER]
    • View Profile
Re: Dwarves won't equip halberd
« Reply #18 on: June 25, 2012, 12:40:48 pm »

I did some fiddling with the raws to see what was necessary to get a pickup. Changing the minimum size to 60000 (dwarven average) did get the largest military dwarf (71760 size) to multigrasp the halberd. Changing the minimum size to 60001 also allowed the dwarf to multigrasp the halberd, so it's not just the race average being used.

This is the first time I've tried equipping any dwarf with anything larger than a longsword, so I've never seen a dwarf with an unmodded human weapon.
Logged
I am trying to make chickens lay bees as eggs. So far it only produces a single "Tame Small Creature" when a hen lays bees.
Honestly at the time, I didn't see what could go wrong with crowding 80 military Dwarves into a small room with a necromancer for the purpose of making bacon.

splinterz

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
    • Dwarf Therapist Branch
Re: Dwarves won't equip halberd
« Reply #19 on: June 25, 2012, 12:46:32 pm »

I did some fiddling with the raws to see what was necessary to get a pickup. Changing the minimum size to 60000 (dwarven average) did get the largest military dwarf (71760 size) to multigrasp the halberd. Changing the minimum size to 60001 also allowed the dwarf to multigrasp the halberd, so it's not just the race average being used.

This is the first time I've tried equipping any dwarf with anything larger than a longsword, so I've never seen a dwarf with an unmodded human weapon.

well what the hell... and you're not using a mod or something that might have different base caste body sizes or anything?

nanomage

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Dwarves won't equip halberd
« Reply #20 on: June 25, 2012, 01:11:15 pm »

I did some fiddling with the raws to see what was necessary to get a pickup. Changing the minimum size to 60000 (dwarven average) did get the largest military dwarf (71760 size) to multigrasp the halberd. Changing the minimum size to 60001 also allowed the dwarf to multigrasp the halberd, so it's not just the race average being used.

This is the first time I've tried equipping any dwarf with anything larger than a longsword, so I've never seen a dwarf with an unmodded human weapon.
Maybe he just didn't drop the halberd that he was able to equip when it had required 60000?
Logged

splinterz

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
    • Dwarf Therapist Branch
Re: Dwarves won't equip halberd
« Reply #21 on: June 25, 2012, 01:53:21 pm »

I did some fiddling with the raws to see what was necessary to get a pickup. Changing the minimum size to 60000 (dwarven average) did get the largest military dwarf (71760 size) to multigrasp the halberd. Changing the minimum size to 60001 also allowed the dwarf to multigrasp the halberd, so it's not just the race average being used.

This is the first time I've tried equipping any dwarf with anything larger than a longsword, so I've never seen a dwarf with an unmodded human weapon.
Maybe he just didn't drop the halberd that he was able to equip when it had required 60000?

i just performed the same test, reloading the game each time. the dwarf would equip a pike up to 60009 size, but 60010 would prevent him from using it. hopefully this is just some rounding issue..

Sutremaine

  • Bay Watcher
  • [ETHIC:ATROCITY: PERSONAL_MATTER]
    • View Profile
Re: Dwarves won't equip halberd
« Reply #22 on: June 25, 2012, 02:05:24 pm »

Nah, I've been reloading between tests. DFHack makes forcequitting really, really easy. I got the same result -- 60009, pickup, 60010, no pickup.

A rounding issue would make sense, but I'm not sure where the rounding would be given that both the average dwarf size and the weapon usage sizes are given directly. Ah well.
Logged
I am trying to make chickens lay bees as eggs. So far it only produces a single "Tame Small Creature" when a hen lays bees.
Honestly at the time, I didn't see what could go wrong with crowding 80 military Dwarves into a small room with a necromancer for the purpose of making bacon.

splinterz

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
    • Dwarf Therapist Branch
Re: Dwarves won't equip halberd
« Reply #23 on: June 25, 2012, 02:29:08 pm »

Nah, I've been reloading between tests. DFHack makes forcequitting really, really easy. I got the same result -- 60009, pickup, 60010, no pickup.

A rounding issue would make sense, but I'm not sure where the rounding would be given that both the average dwarf size and the weapon usage sizes are given directly. Ah well.

yeah i don't know, maybe DF is performing some division or something that's putting it into decimal numbers before it checks for pickup. it's surprising however that the body modifiers aren't taken into account when checking for weapons... i wonder if it's intended or a bug..

splinterz

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
    • Dwarf Therapist Branch
Re: Dwarves won't equip halberd
« Reply #24 on: June 25, 2012, 04:03:53 pm »

ok i've confirmed via reading the memory values that DF does integer division by 10 on the raws. that's why 60009 is allows equipping but 60010 doesn't.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2012, 05:36:26 am by splinterz »
Logged

Seikatsukan

  • Bay Watcher
  • Pro magna iustitia.
    • View Profile
Re: Dwarves won't equip halberd
« Reply #25 on: June 25, 2012, 04:19:24 pm »

i've done some testing and it would appear that the body modifiers for broadness and height have no effect on whether or not a dwarf can use a weapon. i changed the broadness and height of a dwarf to the maximum modifiers of 125, which based on Sutremaine's research would give him a body size of 93,750 cm3. his height and broadness easily cleared the minimum required size of the pike (62,500) i was trying to get him to equip but he still wouldn't equip it. after that, i also modified his strength to 2500 to see if that had any bearing on being able to equip the pike, but again he wouldn't pick it up.

unless someone has a save with a dwarf using one of these large weapons i think that nanomage is correct and the comparison is done between the base body size and the weapon sizes.

So much science in this thread, makes me feel like a total newb. Amazing find, people! This will mean quite an edit in the Wiki.
Logged
Quote from: Naryar
It's simply an escaped demon posing as a god. Still a badass killing machine, but nothing your dwarves can't handle.
Quote from: �
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn.

splinterz

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
    • Dwarf Therapist Branch
Re: Dwarves won't equip halberd
« Reply #26 on: June 25, 2012, 05:11:26 pm »

i've made a note of this thread and the findings on a related bug/tweak report here. so we'll see if anything comes of it.

Sutremaine

  • Bay Watcher
  • [ETHIC:ATROCITY: PERSONAL_MATTER]
    • View Profile
Re: Dwarves won't equip halberd
« Reply #27 on: June 25, 2012, 08:57:52 pm »

You tried long swords and they didn't work either? That's odd, both the 1H and 2H requirements are below 60000. (I don't have any on-site and it's six months until the elves come.)

Just to round things off I tried breaking picks by changing their minimum sizes to match human weapons. This resulted in all dwarves holding the pick two-handed even if they weren't before, but they didn't drop the picks for suddenly being too large. Disabling their Mining labour until they returned their picks to the stockpile and then re-enabling it resulted in them ignoring the picks. Same thing for military equips -- having the weapon be suddenly too large (75500 minimum size, to make sure it was too large) doesn't stop them from using it, just from picking it up.

It could be related to a bug I can't find on the tracker but which was fixed sometime in the 20s of .31. With that one, fortress-produced clothing was always created for creatures of a certain size. It could be worked around by making all castes the same size and then using the height/broadness modifiers to increase or decrease the size of each caste (as indicated by butchery returns in the arena).
Logged
I am trying to make chickens lay bees as eggs. So far it only produces a single "Tame Small Creature" when a hen lays bees.
Honestly at the time, I didn't see what could go wrong with crowding 80 military Dwarves into a small room with a necromancer for the purpose of making bacon.

JarinArenos

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Dwarves won't equip halberd
« Reply #28 on: June 25, 2012, 11:13:57 pm »

Any workaround while waiting on the bug report? Would setting the weapon sizes to 60000 allow the stronger dwarves to use them, or all dwarves?
Logged

Sutremaine

  • Bay Watcher
  • [ETHIC:ATROCITY: PERSONAL_MATTER]
    • View Profile
Re: Dwarves won't equip halberd
« Reply #29 on: June 25, 2012, 11:28:03 pm »

Looks as though it's all of them. I altered the minimum to 60000 and left the 1H at 77500, and then ordered a dwarf listed as size 48000 and described as 'thin' to equip the halberd. She did.

It's probably not a problem to let anyone use human weapons. Assuming no mods, you can't make them and you can't order them, so the quality and material are whatever you'd get randomly off the traders and likely inferior to home-produced dwarven weapons.
Logged
I am trying to make chickens lay bees as eggs. So far it only produces a single "Tame Small Creature" when a hen lays bees.
Honestly at the time, I didn't see what could go wrong with crowding 80 military Dwarves into a small room with a necromancer for the purpose of making bacon.
Pages: 1 [2] 3