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[Folly]

Moreover, the economy is totally disconnected from the rest of the game-time spent in PoE is essentially zero progression for the larger game, and almost everything you get within it is tied to the whole Operator + Focus mechanic, which is already divisive and boring.

I have to disagree with this assessment. We've already got a wide variety of weapons that can easily kill any standard enemy; there would be little point in adding more of the same. Operators, focus and AMP's are divisive mechanics, but that is necessary to keep the game from getting stale. The Teralysts give us more varied combat dynamics, which gives us incentive to invest time and effort in the new systems. Going forward there will be more bosses like the Teralysts who require operators working in coordiation with frames, so that we have even more content to explore.

My only complaint about PoE is the giant bushes and grasses that obscure my line of sight every time I try to shoot something. Seriously, how can we start a petition to fire whatever dumbass game designer thought that feature would make the game more fun?

Also, blue and gold potato alerts are up now!

[Flying Dice]

Operators are a problem. Obviously, they remove players from the central power fantasy of Warframe. Why are you playing WF? Probably because you really enjoy being a zippy space ninja with guns and superpowers flying around like a 'roided out acrobat. Being forced to exit that and go kid-mode where you're slow and only do maybe two things is excruciating. They can make Focus and Operators as OP as they like when you've ground out most of the trees, but that won't change the fact that they're boring and at odds with the core gameplay flow of WF. Also just a tad ironic that you're basing an argument on gameplay diversity when Operators are literally only used for energy-botting outside of missions where you're required to use their dash or beam to do a thing.

Warframe ran for years without the basic gameplay becoming boring, and a big part of that is because DE put in a lot of effort to make sure that weapons and 'frames were as distinct as possible with as many viable options as possible. Frankly, they did a good job-despite most 'frames fitting into a handful of ability "roles", they look unique and handle in very distinctly individual ways. Weapons are slightly less well-off, but only really because some early weapons (looking at you, burst rifles) have been left by the wayside. You can have 60+ weapons forma'd out that you use regularly and barely any of them will closely overlap with the "feel" of each other.

There's also the lore problem. Regardless of whether this has actually been planned or not, Operators were a massive change-up in how we view our characters, and not a good one. WF, like most open RPGs, allowed a very large range of diversity in terms of how players viewed their characters. We knew something was going on because of all the hints of an in-game equivalent to the player as a controlling factor and discrete identity, but it was largely left up to the player to interpret that lore and envision their character.

TSD told players "whatever you imagined was wrong, you are all now whiny immortal teenagers who are massively hypocritical, also you now have to play chunks of the game as immobile insta-dead fleshbags instead of using your Warframes". Yes, you can turn off the godawful voice lines. That doesn't mean that TSD and TWW, however good they might have been otherwise for lore and gameplay, didn't completely trash the notion of player control over characters. That, even more than the crappy mandatory Operator mode, is why Operators and Focus are so widely hated.

It's a shitty grind, players are forced to stop doing the stuff they enjoy and use a wonky system that's equal parts dull and OP (seriously, the energy regen is basically mandatory now) if they want to complete content, all player agency is stripped from the creative construction of characters (oh boy, we get to choose which shitty hairstyle and latex suit our space-kid gets to brood in!), and all of this crap is taking time that could have instead been used to rework underperforming weapons and 'frames, build new content that you can actually play with your WF and progress in the larger game with, &c.

It's not that there is "no" progress in PoE. It's that all of the progress is tied to a shitty mechanic that a big chunk of the playerbase despises, in no small part because it feels like DE is trying to cram it down our throats while ignoring other things that need to be done. They can't even walk it back, it's been too long since TSD and too much content is based off of the Operators. I just hope that The Sacrifice is going to be giving up space-kid in exchange for an Umbra.

[Ozyton]

There's also the lore problem. Regardless of whether this has actually been planned or not, Operators were a massive change-up in how we view our characters, and not a good one. WF, like most open RPGs, allowed a very large range of diversity in terms of how players viewed their characters. We knew something was going on because of all the hints of an in-game equivalent to the player as a controlling factor and discrete identity, but it was largely left up to the player to interpret that lore and envision their character.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Before the Oprator as a playable entity came about I always thought that 'the operator' was you, literally, the person beyond the fourth wall. Each frame has limited agency over themselves (seen in idle animations and the way they move) while you, the operator/player, give them commands (via the controls, whether by keyboard/mouse or gamepad) which they execute themselves. Again, that's just what my interpretation was.

However, if we're going to talk about lore I think there's an even bigger plot hole. Now, I'm not super knowledgeable about the lore so I could be completely mistaken, but I was under the impression that warframes were something the operators controlled because the warframes were better them in every way, but only the Operators could control them because of void energy shenannigans. Now, if the warframes exist to make the operators more powerful etc, why would you want to bring the operator themselves into battle? To me that's like having a knight go into battle, mounted on his horse, wearing full plate armor, but then in the middle of the fight he dismounts and takes his armor off... because reasons.

Someone who knows about the lore please correct me, because I feel there's some fundamental thing that I've overlooked here...

If we're talking just about gameplay DE have put themselves in a pretty bad spot. How do you make both the Warframe gameplay and the Operator gameplay good? To me I probably would have been fine if the operator was simply a 'fifth ability' that was independent of your warframe, kind've how it was before, but it's a bit too late to turn back now that they'd gone down this road. Most of the unique buffs and debuffs seem to be related either to Void mode (which seems rather pointless to me IMO), the blast, and the dash. The range on the blast is extremely short which means you have to be within punching distance of enemies, and that's not exactly a place the Operator can survive for long. The Dash is relatively short range to be used as an attack, but it's at least longer than the blast. It would be better if instead of a narrow line of effect whatever effect is tied to it is sent out in a wave to hit multiple targets or have it be an AOE at the end like the energy dash is now. Void mode... again, I don't really see the purpose of this?

[Folly]

Void mode (which seems rather pointless to me IMO)...The range on the blast is extremely short which means you have to be within punching distance of enemies, and that's not exactly a place the Operator can survive for long.

That is the point of Void Mode, so you can sneak up to an enemy's face and blast it without them being able to hit you back. Dropping into the void not only makes you invisible, you are also invulnerable. It's also great for reviving allies in the middle of a firestorm, escaping danger when things get ugly, and of course sneaking through spy missions without a stealth-frame.

The Dash is relatively short range to be used as an attack, but it's at least longer than the blast. It would be better if instead of a narrow line of effect whatever effect is tied to it is sent out in a wave to hit multiple targets or have it be an AOE at the end like the energy dash is now. Void mode... again, I don't really see the purpose of this?

The dash is heavily augmented by Focus trees, and varies significantly between trees. As a Naramon main, my dash has greatly increased radius, and also opens enemies to finishers which deal even more damage than usual finishers; I use it all the time against heavy heavy enemies that I don't have the right damage type for. Other trees can turn the dash into a wide area crowd-control, or a straight up fireball of death, or even a means of rapid transportation.

[Cyroth]

IMO Operator mode is one of the most awesome things in Warframe. I'm in love with my Vazarin/Naramon Operator.

I can dash across all but the largest rooms in the game faster then a friggin modded Nezha.
I can quickly rush up to a Nullifier while invisible, turn into Warframe again and kill them in melee range without having to deal with their shields or get one-shotted by their stupid Lankas first.
I can rez people or hack consoles while completely invulnerable.
I can make other people invulnerable while they do stuff. Protective Dash is so awesome once ranked up, it defies words.
I've saved more then one objective with Guardian Shell while Limbo/Frost were down.

Once you get used to constantly switching forms the stuff you can pull off is incredible.

[nenjin]

Personally I dislike Operator mode as a separate mode. I wish it felt better integrated. I know I could switch, void dash away from enemies, over insanely long jumps, yadda yadda. I just don't feel the inclination, I'd rather these things be better integrated in to your warframe. The Operator doesn't feel action-y, it feels like it's on a leash. Whereas your warframe does not. Points for timing and execution aside, it's just not something I think about or want to do that often with the bevy of movement abilities I already have.

[frostshotgg]

99% of the time I've seen operator, it's been for one of 4 reasons. A, zenurik energy dash. B, safely reviving teammates. C, crossing large distances in PoE. D, killing eidolons. It's never used as an alternative strategy type deal, just for very specific, single niches.

[Aklyon]

99% of the time I've seen operator, it's been for one of 4 reasons. A, zenurik energy dash. B, safely reviving teammates. C, crossing large distances in PoE. D, killing eidolons. It's never used as an alternative strategy type deal, just for very specific, single niches.

Also E. Kuva siphons, F. Someone leveling up an amp, and G. People messing around in low level alerts

[Flying Dice]

There's also the lore problem. Regardless of whether this has actually been planned or not, Operators were a massive change-up in how we view our characters, and not a good one. WF, like most open RPGs, allowed a very large range of diversity in terms of how players viewed their characters. We knew something was going on because of all the hints of an in-game equivalent to the player as a controlling factor and discrete identity, but it was largely left up to the player to interpret that lore and envision their character.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Before the Oprator as a playable entity came about I always thought that 'the operator' was you, literally, the person beyond the fourth wall. Each frame has limited agency over themselves (seen in idle animations and the way they move) while you, the operator/player, give them commands (via the controls, whether by keyboard/mouse or gamepad) which they execute themselves. Again, that's just what my interpretation was.

However, if we're going to talk about lore I think there's an even bigger plot hole. Now, I'm not super knowledgeable about the lore so I could be completely mistaken, but I was under the impression that warframes were something the operators controlled because the warframes were better them in every way, but only the Operators could control them because of void energy shenannigans. Now, if the warframes exist to make the operators more powerful etc, why would you want to bring the operator themselves into battle? To me that's like having a knight go into battle, mounted on his horse, wearing full plate armor, but then in the middle of the fight he dismounts and takes his armor off... because reasons.

Someone who knows about the lore please correct me, because I feel there's some fundamental thing that I've overlooked here...

By my recollection the current justification is that

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Warframes were used to contain the power of the Tenno so they don't spew Void energy all over everything in combat.

Only problem is, that doesn't mesh with the realities of how Operator mode handles. Never mind that pretty much all Tenno culture developed after Warframe standardization when they thought they were the 'frames or some shit.

That's honestly my biggest issue with Operators, the sheer contrivance of it. Would have made far more sense for the survivors of the 10-0 Incident to have been transformed into post-human digital minds augmented by space magic using the 'frames as remotes and energy channels. Would have even worked with the old 5 being a vague projection of a human form. Instead we get unaging psychic teenagers with the whole "lol Margulis brainwashed us so well that we're still intensely hypocritical about how our war crimes are the only acceptable ones and slavishly devoted to the Sentient puppeting a simulacrum of her corpse" thing going on.

Feels like they wanted a dry run on their hair textures to see if they could get away with NPCs who were neither helmeted nor bald TBH.

[nenjin]

I'd have been ok with lore like that.

I agree the Operators feel contrived. Someone wanted to channel the japanese kid-powering a mecha theme, and that's that. Then they parlayed that in to some kind of weird motherhood fetish storyline that I have been sick of since before Operators were even a thing.

Which makes me lel at the most recent quest:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

OH NOES. MOMMY HAS A BOYFRIEND.

The look on the Operator's face during that whole thing was priceless. Like someone was strangling their puppy right in front of them.

Another thing I dislike about it is.....when it was just your warframe, you had no face to emote with. You had to sit through the quests whether you liked them or not, but at least you felt like you had some say over your own reaction to this stuff, because your own face was just in your imagination.

Now, with Operators, DE is better able to tell us how we're supposed to feel. As far as our own identity with our WF and Operator, DE is like "No, you must revere the Lotus. You must treat her like your mommy. You must give a shit about her storyline, the things she says, the stuff that happens to her."

I'm fine doing the quests. Just don't make me party to all this weepy, emo, lost-childhood bullshit.

[Aklyon]

Would have made far more sense for the survivors of the 10-0 Incident to have been transformed into post-human digital minds augmented by space magic using the 'frames as remotes and energy channels.

Tenno being a big pile of Cephalons would be pretty interesting, but don't particularly mind the current operators either way, though. Its getting DE to make the lore be more than a bunch of random history scattered between a bunch of collectibles, and thats the part I like.

[Flying Dice]

Would have made far more sense for the survivors of the 10-0 Incident to have been transformed into post-human digital minds augmented by space magic using the 'frames as remotes and energy channels.

Tenno being a big pile of Cephalons would be pretty interesting, but don't particularly mind the current operators either way, though. Its getting DE to make the lore be more than a bunch of random history scattered between a bunch of collectibles, and thats the part I like.

Except that the lore as random shit hidden in levels has redoubled of late with all these bullshit statues, music fragments, &c., in combination with railroaded GMPC-loaded quests where we lose control of our character's opinions and emotions. Old lore was good lore because it was subtle, showed rather than told, and left a lot up to the player. Remember, most of the early evidence we had for Warframes having some trace of personality came from codex entries on certain ones.

I was a little ticked during TSD but thought that once we sealed the space-kid back into the orbiter that would be the end of it. Everything since then has been a downhill spiral. Lore bullshit aside, still nobody uses Operators except 1) when it's a mission type that forces you to use them to progress, and 2) for the overpowered energy regen.

It's telling when it's been years since TSD launched and DE still can't make people use them unless they slap on immensely overpowered abilities or lock endgame loot behind them. They don't fit with the gameplay or the lore and desperately need a major overhaul. It's why I'm still hoping that The Sacrifice will kill the fucking kids.

I'd have been ok with lore like that.

I agree the Operators feel contrived. Someone wanted to channel the japanese kid-powering a mecha theme, and that's that. Then they parlayed that in to some kind of weird motherhood fetish storyline that I have been sick of since before Operators were even a thing.

Which makes me lel at the most recent quest:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

OH NOES. MOMMY HAS A BOYFRIEND.

The look on the Operator's face during that whole thing was priceless. Like someone was strangling their puppy right in front of them.

Another thing I dislike about it is.....when it was just your warframe, you had no face to emote with. You had to sit through the quests whether you liked them or not, but at least you felt like you had some say over your own reaction to this stuff, because your own face was just in your imagination.

Now, with Operators, DE is better able to tell us how we're supposed to feel. As far as our own identity with our WF and Operator, DE is like "No, you must revere the Lotus. You must treat her like your mommy. You must give a shit about her storyline, the things she says, the stuff that happens to her."

I'm fine doing the quests. Just don't make me party to all this weepy, emo, lost-childhood bullshit.

Worst part is, the emo bullshit didn't even need to happen. It literally only exists because DE decided "oh BTW the space kids forgot that the game wasn't real life". Never mind that they're all centuries-old supersoldiers who built up a discrete culture that emphasizes personal balance and compartmentalization of emotion, as soon as they pop out of the pods they forget all of that and start acting like a mix of spoiled brat and school shooter.

You're right on the money, it feels like someone high up at DE was on an anime kick and pushed this crap through.

[Wiles]

The plot in Warframe reminds me of the stereotypical hollywood western sets, it's all a facade. But operators could be sentient space mould for all I care, as long as I get to be a super space ninja I am happy.

[Flying Dice]

That's precisely the problem. They decided to try to tell a single-player story in an MMO, and they took a really poor route to do so. I don't ever recall anyone complaining about the story/gameplay segregation before this shit started piling up, even early on when you didn't even go back to the orbiter to walk around between menus.

[nenjin]

It's also like.....ok, new content is great, right?

Except this last quest was literally running through hallways where nothing is happening so you can sit through a cutscene where they desperately want you to care about what's going on.

I know some people like lore. I do, generally. But not this lore. Tell me about the universe. Stop telling me about the fucking Lotus, I just. Don't. Give. A. Fuck. She is only central to the WF plotline because they made her a central part of it, the axis on which everything tilts. It could be anyone though. Ordis could be the vehicle where all this universal knowledge is given to you. Or half of the other dozen characters they introduced, from Maroo to Tenshin to any of the other side characters.

I honestly think it's this way for the following reason: RebeccaDE is the voice of the Lotus. She's one of the OG members of DE. She's personally been there since the start, both providing the voice for the Lotus and having input on the direction the story goes. And I think it's long past time that the game stop making her a center piece. She's a talking head that gives out missions, and that's all I've ever really seen her as. As gameplay elements have expanded in WF, of course the Lotus' bits have had to expand but it's always felt very focused on her whereas it should be focused on...Oh, I dunno......the goddamn universe and the Tenno. But nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo. We have to have stories about her daddy issues. We have to have stories where she talks someone or something off a ledge after we've shot it 120 times in the face. As Operators the whole "mom" angle was played and now they're doubling down on it. She's got to be at the center of everything. "Oh is it it time for a new lore story? What did the Lotus do now, and/or what part of her previously unwritten backstory am I supposed to care about now?"

Just get the damn Lotus out of my face already. I keep thinking after every story update that THIS is the time when she's going to retreat in to the background and the game can actually be about the Tenno. Instead our story and destinies are forever, obnoxiously, yoked to her story.

Like, I half expect if RebeccaDE ever has a baby in RL, we're going to have a WF story to celebrate it, where the Lotus is pregnant with the ubermensch Tenno, because she's the fucking Lotus and the game's story is really her story, and we're just there to bask in its emo-glory.