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Author Topic: Multiplayer support and Servers?  (Read 1136 times)

miauw62

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Re: Multiplayer support and Servers?
« Reply #15 on: July 12, 2012, 06:40:15 am »

The only kind of multiplayer i would want is co-op, especially for adventure mode.
Imagine inviting friends (in the unlikely chance that they play and like DF) and having a good adventure mode game with them.
Or a quick n dirty fort, or a longer-lasting for that is continued over open ports or hamachi.

But even micro-semi-quarter-competive?
No. just no.
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Shadowclaimer

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Re: Multiplayer support and Servers?
« Reply #16 on: July 12, 2012, 06:56:04 am »

I would like to play Fortress Mode alongside my friends personally, that's all I really want.

Then we'd have Dwarf Fortress LANs where we all just hang out and play it.

I'd expect what'd happen is a server would host the world, and the players would run fortresses within that world, the game wouldn't pause if it paused for another player (so actions wouldn't stop the game) and players couldn't pause it unless they hit escape (which would pause it for the other players).

The only issue I could foresee is that the game wouldn't pause while designating and stuff, but then again I've always liked the idea of it still running while I'm mining.
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Its too late for that.. my weapon traps are clogged with dwarf bodies, blood flows like a river through the entrance, the entire fortress is littered with dozens of bodies, my food stocks are all down there, if I build a wall the berserk dwarves outside will get the survivors..
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Starver

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Re: Multiplayer support and Servers?
« Reply #17 on: July 12, 2012, 08:05:33 am »

Ditto surprise that this hasn't been Footkerchiefed.  (The Multiplayer suggestion is a fairly recurring one.)  [Although as this message has become quite long, I've probably been ninjaed, in this regard.  So long that I've decided to Spolier-enclose the different sections]

To add insult to injury, however, I'll repeat some of the past stuff (very much from my own perspective and interpretation), while I split the "multiplayer" aspect into several possible "how it could work" explanations:




Spoiler: 3) Inter-site trading (click to show/hide)





Of course, Toady's declined to arrange/support much of this, as is his perogative.  All in all, the multiplayer-facet would make it a significantly (and, in some cases, vastly) different game from how it is right now.  I could see how people would enjoy cooperative/combative play.  Certainly its an oft-suggested idea.  I've tried to avoid most of the nay-saying and pitfall-indicating in the above, and stick to "how it might happen", but...  the mechanisms needed to make multiplayer work (in whatever variety of multiplayer you might be interested in) are probably also the biggest stumbling block, however much they are the 'solution' to the problems inherent in that form of reimplementation.


And, of course, I did not mention (because they already exist) the "Succession Fortress" multiplaying option.


(Shadowclaimer: I did not mention central-server maintenance of game-state, I suppose because I felt that data-hand-out-and-collate method would be a far better method than having a central non-player box...  Or one player who hosts all the other's efforts, when at least some effort could be shared.  But that is a solution, I acknowledge.)
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Shadowclaimer

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Re: Multiplayer support and Servers?
« Reply #18 on: July 12, 2012, 08:08:51 am »

Understandable, I enjoy your ideas as well, I'm just privy to the idea of a central box because I like the idea of having a hosted world that's constantly being played on and off by a large score of players changing the history. Then you could have server histories for one world.

Akin to those giant collaborated Open Transport Tycoon games.
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Quote from: Shadowclaimer
Its too late for that.. my weapon traps are clogged with dwarf bodies, blood flows like a river through the entrance, the entire fortress is littered with dozens of bodies, my food stocks are all down there, if I build a wall the berserk dwarves outside will get the survivors..
There is no hope.. Only dwarf fortress..

Starver

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Re: Multiplayer support and Servers?
« Reply #19 on: July 12, 2012, 10:09:01 am »

[Sorry, delayed mid-edit...  Asked to crawl through some ceiling spaces hunting for xenomorphs rewiring the phone system].

Ah, if you're talking about join-and-leave persistent worlds, how about some P2P-ish way of maintaining timestamped deltas for each player's efforts across the community.  On joining, you reject any legacy data that's no longer relevant, and retrieve (torrent-like) the infill data from the current cadre of players.

Torrent-like problems may include incomplete regions because of currently unavailable chunks of data, if no current client is one that has previously grabbed some particular lump of data.  "Here be dragons?" for the duration?  (Exactly how it gets implemented would affect if/whether that problem arises.)
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Wellincolin

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Re: Multiplayer support and Servers?
« Reply #20 on: July 12, 2012, 11:02:24 am »

DFTerm has been around for quite a while and never succeeded. It is not the same as CAO even though it uses PuTTy.

Don't get me wrong, I'm one of those who suggested/asked about multiplayer DF from day one. Dwarf Fortress is one of my favorite games in all senses, but it is kind of an off-line game where playing offline isn't quite enough. Most people have known it through the internet, anyway, and quite a few share their stories or read stories about other fortresses every day. The game is almost unplayable if you're offline without the wiki. There are MANY things that aren't obvious or doesn't make sense, imagine you just have the game but no access to the internet. You would probably give up way before you even figure the best (or even a good) place to embark.

A multiplayer feature, even a decent server like CAO through PuTTy would be enough to "improve" the game in a sense. The first immediate benefit would be more players (= more experience, more content, more stories, more etc). There are players who just don't play 100% offline games anymore, for whatever reasons. There are endless others which I don't think I need to state. Everybody has it's own reasons. And if you don't like Multiplayer, you could just download it and play offline old school (like many people do with DC:SS, though it is actually less people than the ones playing online).

But multiplayers would probably mean multi-problems. Multibugs, etc. This is the only bad thing I can think about it. DF is complicated enough without multiplayer, there are several matters I can't imagine running multiplayer. For instance, I don't remember any other game with an almost guaranteed FPS death sooner or later.
 
« Last Edit: July 12, 2012, 11:23:52 am by Wellincolin »
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Revanchist

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Re: Multiplayer support and Servers?
« Reply #21 on: July 12, 2012, 11:26:22 am »

Are we basically saying this is similiar to the toilet-problem? In that some of us want it, most of us agree that it would add something, and the majority of us give a resounding no for whatever reason? I agree that fantasizing is nice, but we have a confirmation this isn't a goal, so what's the point ultimately?

Unless we just meant a sort of copilot that acts as a tutorial, that would be "helpful" I guess...
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knutor

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Re: Multiplayer support and Servers?
« Reply #22 on: July 12, 2012, 09:05:40 pm »

Ladder-like Multiplay.  Defined.  Identical side-by-side embarks, exact world and region, exact size, exact 7 dwarfs(to avoid lots of rerolling), 0 embark points, 0 embark items, last fortress standing wins.  Scored by the forum handle, exact 4x4 region and seed size, and ranked by the length of play down to the seconds, until the last dwarf ceases to be.  No cheaters.  No baby entrapments. No mods, cept the most popular. 

Times listed in DF and on forum, for safe synchronization and backups.  No real moderation, as its inevitable cheaters will find there way here, and exploit it.  So simply close the competition, once its started, to new contestants.  Until another restarts.

Too many dfhacks would saturate the ladder results, prolly.  This is the only reason I see against hosting server and hosting a competitive environment.  The cheater problem.  Fairness is impossible out here on the net.  Tho it could be exciting as a non-server mod, just post results here on the forums.  A bunch of guys on the forum, to compete with each other, using hard presets, and the gentleman approach to fairplay.  I could have fun with that for a bit.  Espeically if the results were nailbiters and always rather close. 

It might even help the people with the quiter-restart syndrom, overcome that.  *Knutor stands up*  "I'm a quiter-restarter."  I like to get it just right.  Sincerely, Knutor
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Starver

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Re: Multiplayer support and Servers?
« Reply #23 on: July 13, 2012, 06:49:33 am »

Indeed, you allude to something that I nearly mentioned...  As it is, you cannot "cheat" in DF.  You play against yourself, you set your own challenges.  If that challenge is "I am going to savescum as much as need to, but I will never do anything but use wood for construction materials", it's as valid as a "straight out, no saving, no DwarfTherapist, no DFHack,... etc" approach.  Because the winning (or losing) conditions are relevent to you and you alone.  And in this instance and in this instance alone.

Apart from shouting out to the forum what you (claim you) have done and getting "Screenshot, or it didn't happen!" responses, it doesn't really matter.

Multiplayer would have to take each and every different approach (including localised Modding) and either allow it, shut it out altogether or 'share the gain' if/when someone implements a trick like in-game modding to add (oh, idunno...) trainability to a previously untrainable beast, or whatever applies to that version and setup.

In many ways, that's why I envisage a P2P approach.  It'd be harder to trick some changes to the local setup without them propagating through the mediated method.  OTOH, a central-server would be able to control information so that a 'spy' application couldn't DFHack-wise so much privileged information that its operator shouldn't know about competitors in the game.  (There are ways and means to both harden and get around all these potential exploitations, but...)



Anyway, add another black mark or two against "multiplayer is trivial to implement"...  Well, "...to implement satisfactoraily".
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knutor

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Re: Multiplayer support and Servers?
« Reply #24 on: July 13, 2012, 02:17:24 pm »

TOME4 has something like that, and lounge to chat and brag, I suppose.  I disable it, because of the way it sync's up at startup without giving the player any control.  I am so fearful of devs forcing online singleplayer, that I can't really agree to multiplayer improving the game.  And that is really sad, with the speed of stuff, and portability of stuff.  Oh well.  I often wonder if TOME4, doesn't use its servers to track software usage stats.  Prolly just paranoia, on my part.  But why else would it need to connect at game startup, with no user controls?  There is a lot to worry about with age of players, and server moderation with multiplay, that I guess, would drag down development of the game into a quagmire, should that be implemented.  But I really don't know, just speculation.  Knutor
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