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Author Topic: [ORC] Discussion and Download Latest! (v1.42B)  (Read 55233 times)

smakemupagus

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Re: Orc Fortress: A new playable civ for ☼MASTERWORK☼
« Reply #75 on: August 12, 2012, 03:52:17 pm »

Just read the RAWs again, dont you get "agony agony bladeshards" in the end ? Maybe making the name of the materials ::: (empty) would help. This way the ammo still has the name for the euipment screen.

Hmm.  what would be the right syntax?
[STATE_NAME_ADJ:ALL_SOLID:::]  ??

Meph

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Re: Orc Fortress: A new playable civ for ☼MASTERWORK☼
« Reply #76 on: August 12, 2012, 04:09:57 pm »

yes, I think that would work. I do not know if you have a blank entry in the stockpiles however, and some dwarves will end up liking (enter blank space here)

So maybe keeping the name for the material, but keeping a unique name for each ammo ? Or you define the ammo through the material,and keep only one ammo type. That makes equipping easier, but of course you cant control if the wraithblade shoots ammo type 1 or 2.

It is confusing, I know. Never liked the problems that you get with stuff like that. I still have to clean up my "gemtip bolt, gemtip arrow, gemtip javelin, rocktip bolt, rocktip arrow, rocktip javelin" for the same reasons.
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Neyvn

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Re: Orc Fortress: A new playable civ for ☼MASTERWORK☼
« Reply #77 on: August 12, 2012, 06:39:48 pm »

So... Just noticed a small problem with some reactions...

Laminate Leather with Horn grabbed my Hoof CRAFTs and Hoof parts... And is done by my Boneworker...

Craft Lamellar Wargear has its Regents as one Lamellar Leather yet it doesn't register...
Edit:: Looking into the Raws... Am I reading it as 6 Lamellar Leather to make 5 items that normally would cost 4 leather in total, and of which may or may not have Quality Modifiers???
« Last Edit: August 12, 2012, 07:05:06 pm by Neyvn »
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Meph

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Re: Orc Fortress: A new playable civ for ☼MASTERWORK☼
« Reply #78 on: August 12, 2012, 07:30:44 pm »

I dont know what you mean with the quality modifiers, but yes, if you use reaction class or has material reaction, than all items made of the selected materials also keep that class. So now, smakemupagus, now you know why my leather reactions and bone studs are so ridiculus complicated ;)
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smakemupagus

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Re: Orc Fortress: A new playable civ for ☼MASTERWORK☼
« Reply #79 on: August 12, 2012, 07:59:58 pm »

Hi Neyvn, Appreciate you taking the time to check in and report issues.

Horn and hoof both are treated as [HORN] in DF, not related to mods, so using hoof parts is fine.  But the crafts and etc., well, that is too bad, and thanks for catching that.  I may just have to take the HORN and SHELL lamellar reactions away unfortunately.

Yes, the gear taking 6 reagents is on purpose for consistency with Masterwork; at the Craftsdwarf shop the leather sets cost 5 and don't include a helm.  Although I think I agree with that value: ITEM_ARMOR_LEATHER and ITEM_SHOES_BOOTS_D both have a material_size of 6 and so isn't it correct that they cost 2 units apiece? 

I don' t know why you say they "may or may not have Quality modifiers"?

Neyvn

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Re: Orc Fortress: A new playable civ for ☼MASTERWORK☼
« Reply #80 on: August 12, 2012, 08:03:07 pm »

All the
Code: [Select]
Designation     Description    Value Modifier Weapon To-Hit / Armor Deflect Modifier
 Item Name —                       1x                   1x
-Item Name- Well-crafted        2x                unknown
+Item Name+ Finely-crafted      3x                unknown
*Item Name* Superior quality 4x                unknown
≡Item Name≡ Exceptional          5x                unknown
☼Item Name☼ Masterful          12x                   2x
Unique name Artifact        120x                   3x
«Item Name» Decorated object Varies                 unknown
I never saw any on the cloaks that I was making... But then again I didn't have a good look due to Invasion...
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Meph

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Re: Orc Fortress: A new playable civ for ☼MASTERWORK☼
« Reply #81 on: August 12, 2012, 08:26:37 pm »

They will have quality modifiers, if the skill of the dwarf is high enough.

At smake: Cant you use: bodypart or bodycomponent with has_material_reaction ? this way the raw mats would be used, but the crafts wouldnt. I remember ending up with something like that.

The material size only affects bars (3 size = 1 bar) as far as I know, not pieces of cloth or leather. More or less a vanilla df balancing bug... you really dont have to balance it upon my work, if you find something that looks odd, rather make it better and tell me. ;)
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corrosivechains

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Re: Orc Fortress: A new playable civ for ☼MASTERWORK☼
« Reply #82 on: August 12, 2012, 11:10:33 pm »

Ok, I think I'm doing something wrong here.  I've appointed my "nobles", specifically the shaman, warchief, speaker, and scribe, but when I set jobs in the manager screen they never get validated.
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smakemupagus

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Re: Orc Fortress: A new playable civ for ☼MASTERWORK☼
« Reply #83 on: August 12, 2012, 11:15:39 pm »

Hmm, scribe is the one that manages work orders.  Does he have his nice rooms, and own a chest and cabinet?  Is it possible he's busy with something else?

corrosivechains

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Re: Orc Fortress: A new playable civ for ☼MASTERWORK☼
« Reply #84 on: August 12, 2012, 11:35:43 pm »

he might be busy cause it is still pretty early in my fort life and I've been keeping everyone busy.  Also he does have a room but I havent had time for chest and cabinets yet, so I'll set those up too.

On the plus side, the nobles seem much more eager to issue mandates XD
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NRN_R_Sumo1

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Re: Orc Fortress: A new playable civ for ☼MASTERWORK☼
« Reply #85 on: August 13, 2012, 03:26:30 pm »

I am unsure how but I can't seem to get it to properly install the 1.9c version  :-\
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Wrex

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Re: Orc Fortress: A new playable civ for ☼MASTERWORK☼
« Reply #86 on: August 13, 2012, 07:20:43 pm »

Ugh, clubs need fixing. I Get better results from unarmed orcs than I do with silver clubs. Yes, it's heavy, but unlike almost every other bludgeoning weapon ever it dosen;t take five shot to an unhelmeted guy to do enough brain damage to kill him. Only the "Bludgeons" attack seems to do even a slightly remarkable amount of damage, while the orcs refuse to do anything but pommel strikes and jabs. What is the contact area you have set for them?


EDIT: Found the issue. His hands were full so he did nothing. Doing more testing in the arena. brb.

EDIT Again: They have an unfortunate predisposition to jab, which does jack all, when they enemy is hacking away at them with swords. Even full on "Beats" or "Bludgeons" Rarely do more than tissue damage. I looked at the raws, and if the contact area really is 8000, than these weapons are so useless I should put them in a danger room. The Contact area on a vanilla hammerbash is ten. For a multigrasp weapon made of silver, I would expect more than a few bruises. A dwarf wielding a copper warhammer. not even a multigrasp weapon, without a shield, wins every. single. time. Against and Uruk-Hai with a silver club. It takes a leggendary hammerorc with a slade club to match the performance of a dwarven conscript armed with a copper war hammer.


EDIT yet again: Almost all the modded blunt weapons share this issue. The contact area is WAAAAAAY too big. A collosal slade mace is inferior to a regular copper mace, or even a sword in terms of bludgeoning power. this however, explains why they only use handle strikes and jabs- They have the lowest contact area and are far more effective than using the weapon as intended.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2012, 08:12:15 pm by Wrex »
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NRN_R_Sumo1

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Re: Orc Fortress: A new playable civ for ☼MASTERWORK☼
« Reply #87 on: August 14, 2012, 12:16:26 am »

After a fair bit more fiddling I managed to get it to install, but it seems I've gotten an interesting orc here..

Hes supposed to be a physically frail mage of sorts, but instead he has similar stats to the Uruk I also got.
A dream walker.


.. Too bad I had a lack of foresight when making this group and did a max area to see if my computer could handle it.  :'(
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smakemupagus

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Re: Orc Fortress: A new playable civ for ☼MASTERWORK☼
« Reply #88 on: August 14, 2012, 02:18:02 am »

Thanks for the report Wrex, you're certainly on to something, although I'll wait for Meph to touch base on whether it's OK for me to tinker with item_weapon_masterwork file.  Another related interesting arena test would be the MW dwarven Maul and Meteorhammer against standard Warhammer.

I also think there are a few edged weapons that have too long an edge by a factor of ~10, tomahawks and keris are the ones relevant to orcs, but there are others too..  Edit:  On second thought, maybe just those.  Smaller contact area and somewhat smaller penetration, to make them intermediate between sizes of dagger and sword.

Only thing is that clubs really shouldn't be multigrasp though, [TWO_HANDED:27500] is quite a low limit, like a machete or dagger. 

@ NRN:  Sorry you had trouble installing.  About your interesting orc, if he just had a "very strong" descriptor in game or a "Diamond" in therapist it means he's strong for a dreamwalker, but hopefully his stats quantitatively should be not over 1500? 
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: August 14, 2012, 02:30:42 am by smakemupagus »
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smakemupagus

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Re: Orc Fortress: A new playable civ for ☼MASTERWORK☼
« Reply #89 on: August 14, 2012, 03:50:03 am »

Sorry for double post.  I'm going to try to restate what I learned from Wrex post to make sure I understand.  In vanilla, all the effective blunt attack contact areas fall in the range 10 (hammer) to 200 (flail).  Within this range of small values it's not clear whether or not smaller is always better.  Ineffective attacks are in the range of 10000 (crossbow bash) to 60000 (flat slap).   MagmaWiki says that "Penetration" stat is not taken into account for blunt attacks.

(1) Club, sledgehammer, 2H mace, etc. should all have contact area probably in that 10 to 200 neighborhood.  Currently they instead have ~8000 and are terrible, like a crossbow bash. 
(2) Blunt weapons probably don't make much sense to have a pommel strike or jab, since that will almost always be more effective than the real strike unless it's just given a high surface area, and then that seems unnecessarily complex and counter-intuitive
(3) Meteor Hammer and the extra attack modes on the Maul are pretty unique that they fall in this intermediate range of 300 to 2000 contact area, and I wouldn't really want to guess whether they're effective or not without testing.

I made a first draft at attempt to fix.  Please weigh in if you like.
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=98196.msg3525252#msg3525252
« Last Edit: August 14, 2012, 12:27:08 pm by smakemupagus »
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