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Author Topic: [34.11]Nobles that should NOT be in Squads, No-Squaders  (Read 23734 times)

knutor

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[34.11]Nobles that should NOT be in Squads, No-Squaders
« on: July 21, 2012, 10:04:07 pm »

Hello DF Community.  This is an attempt to list all the Noble positions in [34.11] that should NOT be in squads.  Here goes:

No-Squaders
Baron/Count/Duke
Mayor/Expedition Leader
Hammerer*
Manager
Bookkeeper
Broker
Chief Medic*


Nobles that should be in squads.  Here goes:

Squaders
King/Queen*
General*
Champion*
Militia Commander
Sheriff/Captain of the Guard
Militia Captain

From what I can tell, from the SCIENCE I've done, if a No-Squad Noble is placed in an Active/Training Squad, he will cease to perform his Noble tasks.  Something that could be catastrophic, if the only nurse-medic available is the Chief Medic.  If there are any errors please let me know, and I'll update the list.  I'm not sure about the advanced Nobles, if you know, please post them, and I'll add them into the list.  At some point I want to add this to the site, Noble AND Squad.

Sincerely, Knutor

*Reference and additional testing requested to confirm.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2012, 12:21:22 am by knutor »
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Oaktree

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Re: [34.11]Nobles that should NOT be in Squads, No-Squaders
« Reply #1 on: July 22, 2012, 12:59:52 am »

The duchess in my current fortress is in a squad and does not hold meetings while on active training.  But during inactive periods will hold meetings and carry out other tasks or labors like any other dwarf.  And I think this holds for the other non-squad positions.  They can be assigned to a squad - but if it has any sort of active training orders they do not carry out other functions.  (And they are also as prone as anyone else to start doing individual combat drills rather than hold meetings as well.)
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wolfwood296

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Re: [34.11]Nobles that should NOT be in Squads, No-Squaders
« Reply #2 on: July 22, 2012, 01:09:13 am »

i don't know about that, i had a woodcutter that stopped cutting any wood after i sent him to attack an enemy, i had to disband his squad before he would start cutting again
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crazysheep

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Re: [34.11]Nobles that should NOT be in Squads, No-Squaders
« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2012, 01:25:38 am »

This is because putting them into military roles makes these nobles ignore their civilian jobs when their squad is activated, and it also appears that training takes a higher priority than anything civilian.

Also, this piece of SCIENCE should go under the Military page on the wiki, rather than the Nobles page.
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Panando

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Re: [34.11]Nobles that should NOT be in Squads, No-Squaders
« Reply #4 on: July 22, 2012, 01:43:13 am »

Chief medical dwarf can be in a squad since it performs no actual function except making available the health information, and this still functions just fine. The chief medical dwarf doesn't actually have to be a doctor, or do anything docterish.
Manager can also be in a squad if you only use the manager to enable workshop profiles and not production orders.

The main dorf which absolutely should not be in a permanently active squad is expedition leader (or later nobles which meet the outpost liaison), since if you change the expedition leader while the liaison is on the map, the liaison will simply leave. And if the leader becomes elite, he/she can become stubborn about performing meetings even when inactive, I think an elite can still perform meetings but you might have to remove him from the squad, or at least barracks, I can't quite remember, I do remember it's a hassle. Anyway, the simple thing to do is just make sure the expedition leader is non-military, or if you really want him to have awesome military skill, make him fight with a pick, so he becomes a legendary miner rather than an elite.
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XXSockXX

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Re: [34.11]Nobles that should NOT be in Squads, No-Squaders
« Reply #5 on: July 22, 2012, 08:01:15 am »

Baron/Count/Duke meet with diplomats, so they should be in the No Squad category.

The other higher Nobles are probaly "Squad optional", they can be in a squad but don't have to be:

King/Queen don't do anything.

Champion gives dwarfs the "talked with a pillar of society" thought, which can be a minor good or minor bad thought depending on the dwarfs personality. Most people probably have him in a squad anyway.

General does not do anything. You get them only if they are married to the king/queen AFAIK.

Are you sure about the Hammerer not performing his job when in a squad? I always have them in the military, but my squads train only half of the year, so I'm not sure.
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thegoatgod_pan

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Re: [34.11]Nobles that should NOT be in Squads, No-Squaders
« Reply #6 on: July 22, 2012, 03:16:58 pm »

All of the above do great in marksdwarf squads. Actually all of my barons have been in the military, just dont make them train constantly, theyll still conduct meetings, sometimes with their axe.
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knutor

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Re: [34.11]Nobles that should NOT be in Squads, No-Squaders
« Reply #7 on: July 22, 2012, 09:57:39 pm »

Thanks for input guys and gals, I'm collecting lots of info here.  Adding to the first post, in proper forum tradition. 

I should clarify myself.  With regard to military activity states and elite soldier status, if Active/Training or Inactive, or both states fail, the Noble's considered a No-Squader.  The goal I have, is to avoid any potential problems, in any combinations, not find a tweaked exception, where the Noble task works under constraints.  This is to avoid, the chances of error.  At some point later on, I'll further classify and separate the states, if people want me to, of course. 

But right now, my goal with this thread is to determine, which Nobles have the possibility of their noble tasks and jobs failing and which do not.  Thanks for the valuable info,  Knutor
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knutor

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Re: [34.11]Nobles that should NOT be in Squads, No-Squaders
« Reply #8 on: July 22, 2012, 10:07:40 pm »

@Panando, A squad mate, under squad orders, will not perform Diagnosis and Job Assignments.  This rules them out.  They will conduct order, equiping themselves first, and then starve and/or die, doing that military order.  They don't break to do Noble tasks.  I'm sure there are inactive state exceptions, good to know those.  Definitely, when a few dwarfs have to stretch out.  I'll add that in a table, later.

i don't know about that, i had a woodcutter that stopped cutting any wood after i sent him to attack an enemy, i had to disband his squad before he would start cutting again

Miner, Woodcutter and Ambusher cannot be in squads, because of their unlisted uniforms.  Miner with pick, Woodcutter with axe and Ambusher with armor+quiver, all have unlisted uniforms.  Be nice, wouldn't it? If we could alter these unlisted uniforms, I'd personally give them all bone and shell gear, immediately.  I always seem to have extra piles of bone laying about, unused.  I'm guessing we will see more unlisted uniforms, when Alchemy with pestle and Weaver with loom, are invented.  Afterall, looms are a dwarfs 10 fingers and 10 toes, and possibly a brush, but nothing more, in the old days, and fingers are very portable, indeed, if you think about it, unless the dwarf loses one.  Sincerely, Knutor
« Last Edit: July 22, 2012, 10:23:05 pm by knutor »
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XXSockXX

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Re: [34.11]Nobles that should NOT be in Squads, No-Squaders
« Reply #9 on: July 22, 2012, 10:49:09 pm »

Ok I get it now. The champion will probably not be able to perform his (rather unimportant) noble task if he is not able to talk to other dwarfs. If he is training full time he cannot talk to anybody, so by that logic he should not be in squad.
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PainRack

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Re: [34.11]Nobles that should NOT be in Squads, No-Squaders
« Reply #10 on: July 22, 2012, 11:49:35 pm »

I don't get it. Don't outpost liasons speak to the mayor?
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knutor

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Re: [34.11]Nobles that should NOT be in Squads, No-Squaders
« Reply #11 on: July 23, 2012, 12:19:13 am »

Way I see things, in these Fortress games, is Inactive Soldiers, do their CIV tasks. 
Active/Training Soldiers, well they do MIL tasks(Scheduled Orders or Individual Training). 

Are Noble tasks CIV or MIL?  Game doesn't make it clear, and WIKI doesn't, either. Only Toady knows, I guess.  From my SCIENCE, I see the above listed results. 

On an aside, I never find missing entities, until I have an Active/Training Sheriff/CoG.  An Inactive Sheriff/CoG, won't find clues.  So in a sense, the Sheriff/CoG squad HAS GOTTA be Active/Training.  Know what I mean?  It appears that all the Sheriff's squadmates share the same detective magnifying glass.  If Justice system is desired, fill the Sheriff/CoG squad for best investigative reporting and results.

@XXSockXX - Never had a Champion, not sure what they do, or if they work while in a Squad.

@PainRack - Right.  But Liason isn't a Noble.  Mayor is already a No-Squader. 

« Last Edit: July 23, 2012, 12:22:37 am by knutor »
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Panando

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Re: [34.11]Nobles that should NOT be in Squads, No-Squaders
« Reply #12 on: July 23, 2012, 02:35:01 am »

@Panando, A squad mate, under squad orders, will not perform Diagnosis and Job Assignments.  This rules them out.
CMD doesn't need to diagnose though. That's an old myth. CMD is basically a figurehead position which enables the health screen, the job itself is literally nothing, the CMD doesn't do anything that he wouldn't normally do as a normal dwarf, it's a title which enables the health screen and nothing more.
In a similar way the Manager is partly a figurehead position who enables workshop profiles. He also performs job assignments. Those are totally different functions, and only the latter involves duties. The thing is that in some ways, assignments and profiles don't play nicely together. For example if you have one forge profiled to a high level weaponsmith, and 3 more forges dedicated to making bolts profiled to low-level weaponsmiths, then a job assignment to make 10 Steel Battleaxes, will scatter over the 4 forges, and most of the axes will be made by the noobies. There are ways around that, for example, fill the bolt-makers forges with nothing but make bolts on repeat so the manager jobs can't fit, but workarounds are a nuisance.
In contrast, the job assignments function works well if you don't do much Profile micromanagement, it's a big convenience in it's own way, but only if it's not conflicting with your workshop profiles (i.e. the two manager functions have to operate in different spheres).

So my point is that for some players' styles, the manager is used exclusively to enable workshop profiles. As such he doesn't need to have even a milliseconds free time to work in a office. This is not only a question of military service, a noble like a bookkeeper, needs to have free time to do his noble job. A manager who is used only to enable workshop profiles, does not need free time. Hence he can be a miner, or a farmer, or engraver, or any other profession which is very "engaging" for long periods of time. In contrast, a manager who is used for job assignments, must have free time, because the responsiveness of the job assignments depends on him having nothing better to do.

It's important to be clear about whether a noble function is active or passive. We can say that a passive noble function is basically a cop-out on the part of toady (or a temporary placeholder for what will later be fleshed out as an active duty). For example, the CMD should have to actively perform health checks or track doctor actions or something to provide detailed medical data for the fort, but as it stands, simply assigning the CMD makes all medical data available immediately.
Passive functions are CMD (enables health screen), Manager (enables workshop profiles), Sheriff/CotG (enables justice screen), and in past versions, other nobles, like Dungeon Master, also had passive functions. The manager and sheriff have both active and passive functions.
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XXSockXX

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Re: [34.11]Nobles that should NOT be in Squads, No-Squaders
« Reply #13 on: July 23, 2012, 08:56:09 am »

On an aside, I never find missing entities, until I have an Active/Training Sheriff/CoG.  An Inactive Sheriff/CoG, won't find clues.  So in a sense, the Sheriff/CoG squad HAS GOTTA be Active/Training.  Know what I mean?  It appears that all the Sheriff's squadmates share the same detective magnifying glass.  If Justice system is desired, fill the Sheriff/CoG squad for best investigative reporting and results.

I have never had problems finding missing entities without a Sheriff. They are cleared as soon as a dwarf sees the corpse. However, dwarfs do not actively look for missing/dead entities, so if they never walk past a corpse, "missing" will never be cleared.

I have also seen that if a dwarf is in prison, a random member of the Sheriff's squad will be assigned to the prisoner, probably he performs the arresting/freeing or the feed prisoner job. Might be the latter, as that does not seem to happen with vampire prisoners.

To get this as accurate as possible we will have to differentiate the different noble tasks into further categories, as some task might conflict with being in a sqad while others might not. Like this:

Broker: Enables wealth display (passive); Trades at Depot (active) <- in this case the passive task does not interfere with being in the military, the acive one does

Manager: Enables Workshop Profiles (passive); Job Assignment (active)

Bookkeeper: Enables Stock Screen (passive); Updates Stock Records (active)

Chief Medic: Enables Health Screen (passive); Diagnosis is NOT a Noble task, any dwarf with Diagnosis enabled can do it. If the Chief Medic is in a squad, but there are other Diagnosers, there is no conflict.

Hammerer: Executes prisoners (active); possibly does not interfere with being in an active squad

Militia Commander: Enables Military screen (passive)

Militia Captain: Enables Squad menu (any squad leader does)

Sheriff/Captain of the Guard: Enables Justice Screen (passive); Arrests/Beats criminals (active); active task does not interfere with being in a squad, possibly needs to be in a squad to perform task

Mayor/Expedition Leader: (needs to talk to people to perform task, so I classify his task as active) Receives complaints from unhappy dwarfs (active); Conducts Meeting with liaisons and diplomats (active), before there is a baron

Baron/Count/Duke: Conducts Meeting with liaisons and diplomats (active), he will take over this job from the mayor; Appoints Champion (passive)

King/Queen: No task (according to the wiki he is supposed to appoint the General, but AFAIK Generals do only show up if they are the spouse of the king/queen)

General: No task

I am very sure that King and General have no task, I have had them in forts for many years. Even peace agreements were done by the Baron.

Champion: Talking to the champion gives dwarfs "talked to a pillar of society" thought, depending on the dwarfs attitude towards authority this is a minor happy or minor unhappy thought. He needs to talk to dwarfs to give this thought, so if he is not in a squad and idle all the time, every dwarf gets it, if he is in a squad and training full time I think only dwarfs that train with him get it.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2012, 09:06:29 am by XXSockXX »
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Altaree

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Re: [34.11]Nobles that should NOT be in Squads, No-Squaders
« Reply #14 on: July 23, 2012, 01:41:48 pm »

So, these are dwarves that should not be in squads that train.   I have a 2 civ squads that have armor assigned.  One has weapons, the other doesn't.  These squads don't train but they do allow me to armor up the civilians in clothes that don't wear out.
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