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[Seraphim342]

Lemme set this straight... evil biomes SUCK... but I like the way they suck.  I wouldn't mind if they sucked more.  But every other aspect of the game that involves a considerable amount of risk also comes with significant rewards.  Breaching the cavern levels gets you access to underground trees, better the further you go.  Magma... is just amazing, yet has its own risks associated with it, not the least of which being in the form of fiery, fiery death either from the magma itself or... other things associated with it.  Cotton candy's the best stuff there is... but has its own very significant risks.  As it stands, in terms of alignment, good biomes give good reward (the best booze in the game, and very useful wood) for no risk, whereas with evil the rewards are a lot less in terms of practical uses.  Sure there's silver dye and really heavy wood, but really heavy wood is only really useful for things made of wood that get a bonus from being heavy... like wooden arrows and weapons.  Talk about elves?  And silver dye's barely even cosmetic, except for the higher value which is kinda moot because you're probably not going to be doing a whole lot of caravan trading regardless....

All I'm saying is add in a little reward for having the stones to face off against the constant stream of undead, toxic clouds, rain that can melt your skin, and masses of reanimating, dividing enemies that can melt your CPU.  Maybe not even something that's just a better version of stuff elsewhere, but an interesting new mechanic to play with?  Undead slave labor?  Tameable undead beasts?  Willing zombification for certain benefits at the expense of others, like vampirism/werewolves?  Lots of possibilities. 

[Loud Whispers]

I agree - no great ideas off the top of my head though.  I enjoy the evil biomes too, though the initial embark is a bit too formulaic for my tastes - dig fast and seal off.  Doing anything else is near suicide.

So guess what makes playing in evil biomes fun?

Doing everything else. It is like the wiki says, if you play too conservatively you'll have no fun at all, and we wouldn't want that...

[WealthyRadish]

I think all that's needed is more gradation on the difficulty scale. Currently, there really isn't that much difference between the easiest locations and the hardest non-evil locations, at least for a player far enough into the game... some middle ground would be nice. Yeah, you can embark on a metal free glacier near 8 necromancer towers, but that doesn't even come close to the challenge from the nastier evil biomes. I guess you could make the argument that the variation between the evil areas is enough, but even then many of the effects just end up either being a minor nuisance or a WTFBBQDEATHGASM, with little in between.

[Loud Whispers]

And how would you get past the fact that everything is randomly generated?

[k9wazere]

Evil biomes are there so that every time some poor bastard says df is too easy we got somwhere to send him 
The challenge itself is the reward.

The whole point of evil biomes is for people who want the additional challenge that survival in these biomes brings.

It's like regular Minecraft vs Survival Minecraft. I know a lot of people who turned the creatures off and just built things, but personally I liked the exploding shrubbery and undeads.

Evil biomes don't need more "reward". The challenge, as slowpokez succinctly put it, is its own reward.

[Loud Whispers]

Evil biomes don't need more "reward". The challenge, as slowpokez succinctly put it, is its own reward.

Not to mention it's supposed to be deliberately repulsive to anyone who doesn't want the challenge

[MetalSlimeHunt]

I can think of three things:

1. Additional support from the Mountainhome for being so crazy as to attempt to settle cursed land. This, of course, translates into 100 bonus points on embark and a 500% migrant rate boost. Only one of those is meant to actually help you.

2. An increased chance of ancient ruins, filled with amazing and probably cursed artifacts and horrible undead monstrosities harmless corpses.

3. An increased rate of strange moods, especially Fell, Macabre, and Possessed. 

[Replica]

Good biomes are not dwarfy, you elf.

Ponies are not dwarfy, you bronie.

Dwarves are not pony, you floating guts.

Modding isn't vanilla, you hacking scum.

Vanilla is too easy, you purist simpleton.

[celem]

Vanilla is too easy, you purist simpleton.

Indeed.  After a couple of years here at bay 12 evil biomes are just about all that remains as a serious challenge.  Sure you can always set yourself deliberate handicaps like item/skill-less embarks but the truth is that there are a series of formula you can follow to overcome any of these challenges with little thought.   New versions bring new features, but they are only a challenge until you beat them a couple of times and add the tactics to your repertoire.

Evil is fun 'cos its evil.  Its also the only time I crumble forts anymore, I wouldnt wanna miss out on that.  Raising evil zones are the single greatest challenge i've ever faced in DF. (no qualifications, I have an easier time with HFS than raising biomes)  And theres no cookiecutter tactic to handle it (beyond dig fast, wall faster and turtle for life)

Now THAT is fun people. 

Without these sinkholes of dispair I would never play vanilla, its a rare enough occurance as it is.  I want more Fun, and only losing is truly Fun.

[ZzarkLinux]

Silver Barbs aren't good enough for ya, eh?

I was able to dye two silver-colored socks in my last fort. And 99% dead grass didn't stop me.

Beat that !

[Loud Whispers]

Silver Barbs aren't good enough for ya, eh?

I was able to dye two silver-colored socks in my last fort. And 99% dead grass didn't stop me.

Ahem... They're SLIVER barbs, and they make good black dye.

_{(My Dwarves chose it as their civ symbol )}

[Twangykid]

Vanilla is too easy, you purist simpleton.

Indeed.  After a couple of years here at bay 12 evil biomes are just about all that remains as a serious challenge.  Sure you can always set yourself deliberate handicaps like item/skill-less embarks but the truth is that there are a series of formula you can follow to overcome any of these challenges with little thought.   New versions bring new features, but they are only a challenge until you beat them a couple of times and add the tactics to your repertoire.

Evil is fun 'cos its evil.  Its also the only time I crumble forts anymore, I wouldnt wanna miss out on that.  Raising evil zones are the single greatest challenge i've ever faced in DF. (no qualifications, I have an easier time with HFS than raising biomes)  And theres no cookiecutter tactic to handle it (beyond dig fast, wall faster and turtle for life)

Now THAT is fun people. 

Without these sinkholes of dispair I would never play vanilla, its a rare enough occurance as it is.  I want more Fun, and only losing is truly Fun.

This thread just god derailed so hard by these two, they rerailed.

My god.

[brainfreez]

anyway , why should your mountainhome give you 100 more embark points , if they know that there is 70% chance the fort will fall and the items will be lost forever.

and why would mountainhome send you 500% more immigrants if they know that they are sending dwarves to bloody death ?

i think immigrants should be reduced and only the dwarves with iron will would come because everyone knows its a death sentence to join the fort in the evil glacier , to help them scare away the husked polar bears .

and if you are looking for ruins , just make adventurer and search for tombs .

it would be awsome to have only possesseing , fell and macabre moods .

[MetalSlimeHunt]

anyway , why should your mountainhome give you 100 more embark points , if they know that there is 70% chance the fort will fall and the items will be lost forever.

More of a 100% chance, but because more supplies equals a higher success rate.

and why would mountainhome send you 500% more immigrants if they know that they are sending dwarves to bloody death ?

The rational answer is to get rid of excess dwarves by sending them to their bloody deaths.

The real answer is that it's Fun for forts in Evil places to have explosive migration.

i think immigrants should be reduced and only the dwarves with iron will would come because everyone knows its a death sentence to join the fort in the evil glacier , to help them scare away the husked polar bears .

And who says they know anything about the area before they get there? Frankly, given how many migrants come to dangerous fortresses already; I'd say it is safe to conclude that they have no idea what they are getting themselves into.

and if you are looking for ruins , just make adventurer and search for tombs .

Boring! Picking through the bones of a dead civilization only to find that which destroyed it is very dwarven, especially if the ruins are underground.

[Noodz]

There's nothing stopping us from modding something VERY cool for evil biomes. I for one REALLY like sliver dye, and i intend to build a fortress where all-black clothes are all the rage.

But maybe we could mod another shrub with the [EVIL] tag.