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Author Topic: Wrestlers should not throw each other in training.  (Read 649 times)

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Wrestlers should not throw each other in training.
« on: August 16, 2012, 09:43:41 am »

I performed a token search (throwing training, Stop throwing training, no throwing training, tossing training) and got no results, so here we are.

A while back Toady changed militia training so that sparring results in light taps rather than hospital visits, but apparently Wrestlers are immune to this in one select area- Throwing. I don't know if this became a bigger issue due to the minecart update which, if I remember correctly, changed how flight paths and falling damage worked, but dwarves should avoid throwing each other head first at the nearest wall or floor during a friendly spar. Armor can mitigate this somewhat, but this is more along the lines of changing the activity from 'lethal' to 'dangerous', rather than actually stopping it.

GreatWyrmGold

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Re: Wrestlers should not throw each other in training.
« Reply #1 on: August 16, 2012, 12:04:16 pm »

I...wasn't all that serious.

Still, good idea. At least, until all training has some risk.
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Revanchist

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Re: Wrestlers should not throw each other in training.
« Reply #2 on: August 16, 2012, 11:01:25 pm »

Shouldn't training be risk-free, or close to it. Even if you're a perpetually drunk dwarf suffering from lack of combat?
Although it is funny for Urist McBed to get hospitalized from training...
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Re: Wrestlers should not throw each other in training.
« Reply #3 on: August 16, 2012, 11:18:36 pm »

Shouldn't training be risk-free, or close to it. Even if you're a perpetually drunk dwarf suffering from lack of combat?
Although it is funny for Urist McBed to get hospitalized from training...

Not risk free: Training accidents happen in even the best controlled environments. Unfortunately, right now for whatever reason, it seems Toady can only set combat to two extremes: risk-free, and hysterically lethal.

I'll take risk free training until the possibility of reasonable risk opens up.

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Re: Wrestlers should not throw each other in training.
« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2012, 02:36:02 am »

They only need leather armor to mitigate lethal injuries to non. They may get oversealous or a limb may skid, but a leather helmet will reduced broken skull and torn brain to a nasty bruise and armor reduces broken ribs and spines to a nasty bruise as well.

The training system is fine, such as it is anyway, and the throwing thing is a natual part of such combat (it's actually takedowns that result in lethal injuries most of the time though, not full blown throws.)

GreatWyrmGold

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Re: Wrestlers should not throw each other in training.
« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2012, 07:44:43 am »

Shouldn't training be risk-free, or close to it. Even if you're a perpetually drunk dwarf suffering from lack of combat?
Although it is funny for Urist McBed to get hospitalized from training...
Training accidents SHOULD happen, especially if you're training with sharp, metal weaponry, but I highly doubt that being thrown into walls is a leading cause of sparring injuries anywhere but Dwarf Fortress.

They only need leather armor to mitigate lethal injuries to non. They may get oversealous or a limb may skid, but a leather helmet will reduced broken skull and torn brain to a nasty bruise and armor reduces broken ribs and spines to a nasty bruise as well.
The training system is fine, such as it is anyway, and the throwing thing is a natual part of such combat (it's actually takedowns that result in lethal injuries most of the time though, not full blown throws.)
It seems a bit illogical that dwarves can lightly tap other dwarves with their axe blades or spear points without drawing blood, but cause injuries when they toss each other around.
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Re: Wrestlers should not throw each other in training.
« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2012, 07:52:50 am »

I asked the same question. I can't help but think the training thing was because training maces and hammers aren't included in vanilla, and because soldiers can get nightmarishly attached to the training weapons which are fuck all useless in combat may have been a factor (Ever have a swordsman with a steel sword waiting for him try to basically beat things with a fancy nightstick? it gets you a dead swordsman damn quick.)

The death by take-down/throw is inexcusable on dirt floors or walls. Wood or stone sure, because that can't give much, if at all. And with no head protection head injuries are bound to be lethal on such surfaces eventually. Things like broken limbs are also perfectly logical because the wrestlers can be perceived as putting a little too much in thier throws and punches and what not. And after all, if 100+ pounds comes crashing down on your wrist or leg at an off angle, it probably won't hold up too well.

But hey, at least some body armor and helmets can keep the lethal wrestling injuries down/eliminate them.

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Re: Wrestlers should not throw each other in training.
« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2012, 08:30:04 am »

It seems odd to me that, while wrestling is often lethal during training, nothing else ever is (barring a poorly-placed pit or goblin invasion or something).
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Re: Wrestlers should not throw each other in training.
« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2012, 08:31:09 am »

Hey I didn't write the training code. And not everyone likes the thought of thier soldiers accidently killing/crippling eachother.

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Re: Wrestlers should not throw each other in training.
« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2012, 08:42:56 am »

Obviously.
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Neonivek

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Re: Wrestlers should not throw each other in training.
« Reply #10 on: August 17, 2012, 04:04:54 pm »

Training accidents not only were a common occurance back then and uttarly expected, but in many ways it was part of the experience.

To quote a game: "Death can come from the wooden sword"

The issue with training accidents is that Dwarves will become entirely disabled with the lightest injury that could even never heal and that grewsome death was somewhat common (Not in my oppinion. I only lost two or even five dwarves training my 50 dwarf army).

What ended up happening is we sort have got a very unrealistic training now in the opposite way. Wrestlers should be throwing eachother MORE.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2012, 04:14:58 pm by Neonivek »
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GreatWyrmGold

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Re: Wrestlers should not throw each other in training.
« Reply #11 on: August 17, 2012, 04:41:58 pm »

No, dwarves should be hurting each other in ways OTHER than throwing. Or not throw in training, either way. Wrestling is the least lethal martial art a dwarf can learn for the battlefield, why is it the only one dwarves can hurt each other with while training?
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Neonivek

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Re: Wrestlers should not throw each other in training.
« Reply #12 on: August 17, 2012, 04:45:27 pm »

No, dwarves should be hurting each other in ways OTHER than throwing. Or not throw in training, either way. Wrestling is the least lethal martial art a dwarf can learn for the battlefield, why is it the only one dwarves can hurt each other with while training?

Because they didn't put down soft mats for them to throw on.
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Splint

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Re: Wrestlers should not throw each other in training.
« Reply #13 on: August 17, 2012, 05:18:11 pm »

I get busted limbs and whatnot fairly regualrly. Any soldiers training wrestling tend to be slamming eachother into stone/wood floors or walls. And I'd watch out for whoever gets hurt the most. They may disguise murders as training accidents. Had a sergeant get injured once a month for three months. first time it was broken ribs, then a broken leg, then a broken wrist. after that three recruits died in three weeks, one of which he openly climed as a kill and didn't care. it was after the third death (he was thrown full force into a wooden wall) I began issuing safety gear (leather armor.) Wrestling injuries dropped  exponentially. I didn't see worse then really bad bruising until next year when a wrestler broke his knee.

If nothing else, fatal injuries can be reduced by leather armor so changes to wrestling arent exactly needed yet. As far as proper training, the way the game handles such things is a compromise. The soldiers don't need to waste time getting thier actual weapons and accidents don't happen, and the soldiers don't grow too fond of those cheap billy clubs that were supposed to be stand ins for thier actual weapons. I've seen reports of it happening VERY RARELY however so the possibility is still there outside wrestling, just with the new skidding and such, wrestling has become much more lethal in training.

As it stands, all around training is far as hell from perfect. We'd either end up with soldiers dying regularly off the battlefield, which would piss many people off, or we'd have soldiers trying to carry useless weapons into battle, which would make others pissed. Things that would be needed would be removing the possibility for soldiers to get attached to training weapons, training weapons for all standard combat skills (basically meaning a hammer, mace, sword, axe, spear and maybe knife. Because how the hell do you make a training whip.) While training maces and hammers can be modded in, that only fixes that for the individual.

I personally think wrestlers should go for disabling jointlocks and throw more often, but that also means the AI might have them activly trying to break bones which might defeat the purpose. And the reason I keep mentioning soldiers getting attached to training weapons is in my succession game a soldier got a little too fond of a training pike and carried it into battle instead of his actual combat pike. Almost got him killed.

Bah, i went off on a bit of a rant. My point is, the current system has a means of reducing/eliminating fatal injuries to wrestlers in training with a simple suit of leather armor, and the current training system is a compromise until something better can be figured out. So lets all just enjoy the fact that we can watch our dwarves whack eachother with pointy metal things and not kill eachother by accident somehow.

GreatWyrmGold

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Re: Wrestlers should not throw each other in training.
« Reply #14 on: August 18, 2012, 06:21:42 pm »

No, dwarves should be hurting each other in ways OTHER than throwing. Or not throw in training, either way. Wrestling is the least lethal martial art a dwarf can learn for the battlefield, why is it the only one dwarves can hurt each other with while training?

Because they didn't put down soft mats for them to throw on.
Then other martial arts should also offer risk.
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