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Author Topic: Magmacart pump no decrease of FPS  (Read 2805 times)

Perroquet

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Magmacart pump no decrease of FPS
« on: August 20, 2012, 05:30:41 am »

I’ve done a lot of science for Minecart Magma pump stack. First of all, English is not my native language so I hope you can understand all.

I followed some minecart discussions and was inspired by the possibilities that Toady gave us. I think some of you use already minecarts to bring enough magma up to the workshops but I didn’t saw any solution that can replace a magma pump stack.

The following design can pump magma nearly in the same speed as the screw pumps but there is no FPS reduction in the game (a notebook with 2.6 gHz, Magmacart pump over 132 Z-level and a fort with 50 dwarfes). It uses more than one cart on the same track so I want to find a design where the reliability is 100%. To ensure this you need a screw pump in the filling station and a dropping collector so that the minecarts don’t be stucked.

Here some numbers: (please note, that I testet in seconds and this can be different for each computer)
Screwpump speed:
  • ~ 15 units of magma / second
  • 10 power / z-level
  • 4 magma safe metal or glas / z-level
Magmacart pump:
  • ~ 12 – 13 units of magma / second
  • 9 power / z-level
  • + ~40 power for the filling station
  • 14 magma safe metal for the complete stack + 2 magma safe metal per minecart
  • Used minecarts -> half the z-Level of the Stack (in my case 132 z-level -> 66 Minecarts)
As you can see, you need after 40 z-level less power and metal than the screw pump.
If you use less minecarts than half of the z-levels then you can calculate approximate magma /seconds with this formula.
Magma/second = 2/(z-level*0.07)*amount_minecarts

Now I will show you how to build this Magmacart pump from the bottom to the top:
All stairs are on top of the other so if the plans don’t show the same area size than you have to arrange them according the stairs.
Used symbols:
S = stairs
# = Wall
D = Door
G = gear assembly
F = Fortification
R = Roller on track with highest acceleration
U = upward ramps with tracks and roller with highest acceleration
u =upward ramps with tracks but no roller
B = bars
T = track with trackstop lowest friction and dumping east
t = track only
PP = Screw pump
. = floor
  = no floor (channel)


Filling station lower level covered with magma:
Code: [Select]
##########   EVERYTHING HERE HAS TO BE MAGMASAFE (METAL MECHANISM, METAL CHAIN)
##########
#SDG######   Connect on of this gear assembly with a lever or an automated system  to turn on/off the pump
###G######
##FGFFF...   1x3 Roller direction W->E
##FRRUF...   Tracks all EW
##FFFFF...
#.........
#.........
##########

Filling station upper level:
Code: [Select]
##########
##########
#S#G######
###URRR###   tracks: EW, EW, EW, SW   Roller: 1x4 E->W
######R###   tracks:             NS   Roller: 2x1 S->N
### # R###   tracks:             WN   Roller see above   first empty field is the drop shaft, second is where the track comes from the lowe lvl
###P######
###P######   Screw pump: pumps from south to nord !!!COMPLETE MAGMASAFE
###B######
##########

Spiral tower part 1:
Code: [Select]
##########
##########
#SUG######   track: NS   Roller: 2x1 S-> N
##R ######   track: NE   Roller: see above
##########
### ######   empty field is the drop shaft
##########


Spiral tower part 2:
Code: [Select]
##########
##RU######   tracks: SE, EW   Roller: 1x2 W->E
#S G######
##########
##########
### ######   empty field is the drop shaft
##########


Spiral tower part 3:
Code: [Select]
##########
### R#####   track: ES   Roller: 2x1 N-> S
#S#GU#####   track: Ns   Roller: see above
##########
##########
### ######   empty field is the drop shaft
##########


Spiral tower part 4:
Code: [Select]
##########
##########
#S#G #####
###UR#####   tracks: EW, NW   Roller: 1x2 E->W
##########
### ######   empty field is the drop shaft
##########

Repeating Spiral tower part 1-4 until you reach the “desired z-level – 5” and you have end with a Spiral tower part 3 ( or you have to rotate the spiral tower (not the droping collector)

Dropping collector  part 1 (lowest):
Code: [Select]
##########
##########
#S#G #####
###UR#####   tracks: EW, NW   Roller: 1x2 E->W
##########
### ######   empty field is the drop shaft
###u######   tracks: NS
##########


Dropping collector  part 2:
Code: [Select]
##########
##########
#SUG######   track: NS   Roller: 2x1 S-> N
##R ######   track: NE   Roller: see above
##########
### ######   empty field is the drop shaft / collector
### ######   empty field is the drop shaft / collector
##########


Dropping collector  part 3:
Code: [Select]
##########
##RU######   tracks: SE, EW   Roller: 1x2 W->E
#S G######
##########
##########
### ######   empty field is the drop shaft / collector
### ######   empty field is the drop shaft / collector
###u######   tracks: NS
##########
 


Dropping collector  part 4:
Code: [Select]
##########
### U#####   track: EW   Roller:1x1 W-> E
#S#GG#####
##########
#####u####
### #T       first empty field is the drop shaft, second part of empty fields is the magma reservoir !!!MAGMASAFE TRACKSTOP!!!
#####u####
### ######
###u######   tracks: NS
##########
 


Dropping collector  part 5 highest part of the stack:
Code: [Select]
##########
#### R####   track: EW   Roller:1x1 W-> E
#S#GGR####
#####R####
##### ####
..D # ####   first empty field is the drop shaft. Here you can set an garbage dump so you can fill the system with minecarts
##### ####
#####t####   tracks:         NS
### #t####   tracks:         NS
###ttt####   tracks: NE, EW, NW
##########
 
« Last Edit: August 22, 2012, 02:57:37 am by Perroquet »
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melphel

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Re: Magmacart pump no decrease of DPS
« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2012, 12:33:00 pm »

Very nice work.  I had been using the "double helix" design with one track down, one track up, and my carts seemed to get stuck on each other a lot.  Dropping them down is a good idea.

I did however use far less power than your design.  I was successfully bringing up magma filled minecarts with only one tile of roller every three levels.  With the gear assembly on that level, and two vertical axels between rollered zlevels, that's only 9 power per 3 zlevels.  That's one third the power cost of your set up, and a wind-farm is viable for embarks that aren't excessively deep, which is nice if the embark has no running water.  You seem to have rollers on every level, are they really necessary?

Also, how is your pump powered?
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Perroquet

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Re: Magmacart pump no decrease of DPS
« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2012, 03:01:49 pm »

For the connection of the pump: I have connected from the level above but you can also connect it from the side.

For the needed power: My primary goal was to design a system where I never want to look on it anymore after it's going "online". If some carts getting stuck you have to stop it complete and it takes a lot time to reset this carts. The worst case is, that each car crashes with one that is stuck. In this case the stuck cart get the momentum and the other stops 1 title before. After some time it reaches the filling part then they stuck in magma and you cannot reset it without pumping it away. I want also to avoid odd behavior because of game save/load, set the pump on/off regulary or some other unplannable cases (invadors or the carts crashes and spread magma on the gear assembly shaft and some are destroyed as example)

To drop them down with this design has more avantages:
- they goes faster down as through the double helix.
- easy to place the carts on the route
- adding more carts during a running system without harm your dwarfes
- they rest one z-Level over the lowest part so the pump has enough time to fill the carts
- to build the drop shaft you need less time than the tracks
- when the system is offline all carts are stored in this shaft


One addition to this system. I suggest to connect a lever or an automated system to control you magma reserves in the resevoir BEFORE you flood it with Magma :)
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Triaxx2

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Re: Magmacart pump no decrease of DPS
« Reply #3 on: August 21, 2012, 07:11:06 am »

I always send down the mine carts dropping through three ramps to throw them up the other side of the magma. Works well, and I can have multiple parallel tracks shooting through. I'm working on an automated switching system. Being able to send a bunch of carts, and have them pulled off to the sides by rollers, with each one deactivating the previous one in sequence, or alternately activating them. Either way, having the final pressure plate in the sequence re/deactivate all the others. I've also considered having them reach the top of the line on their parallel tracks, and then be turned by a 5 tile roller before dumping.

You could then have tracks that come in and use a roller to turn them, allowing you to add carts without any interaction from dwarves other than giving them a push to the rollers.
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backora900

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Re: Magmacart pump no decrease of DPS
« Reply #4 on: August 21, 2012, 07:40:58 am »

Perroquet, how do you turn this thing off (when you have full magma reservoir for example). Just cut the power to the whole thing? Can that make some minecarts stuck on spiral tower?

Also:
Filling station lower level covered with magma:
Code: [Select]
##########   EVERYTHING HERE HAS TO BE MAGMASAFE (METAL MECHANISM, METAL CHAIN)
##########
#SDG######
###G######
##FGFFF...   1x3 Roller direction W->E
##FRRUF...   Tracks all EW
##FFFFF...
#.........
#.........
##########
This part allows magma-safe creatures to enter your fort because if fortification is in 7/7 liquid they are passable. Just that you know. :)

Oh and one more thing. I think it is FPS (as frames per second) and not DPS (as deaths? per second). ;)


I always send down the mine carts dropping through three ramps to throw them up the other side of the magma. Works well, and I can have multiple parallel tracks shooting through. I'm working on an automated switching system. Being able to send a bunch of carts, and have them pulled off to the sides by rollers, with each one deactivating the previous one in sequence, or alternately activating them. Either way, having the final pressure plate in the sequence re/deactivate all the others. I've also considered having them reach the top of the line on their parallel tracks, and then be turned by a 5 tile roller before dumping.

You could then have tracks that come in and use a roller to turn them, allowing you to add carts without any interaction from dwarves other than giving them a push to the rollers.
I am not sure if I understood correctly what do you speak of but perhaps this can inspire you. :)
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=113109.msg3442199#msg3442199
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Triaxx2

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Re: Magmacart pump no decrease of DPS
« Reply #5 on: August 21, 2012, 12:29:48 pm »

Interesting, but what I was thinking was:

Code: [Select]
WWWWTWWWW
WWWWRRRRTT
TTRRRWWWWT
^WWWRRTTW^
TWTRRWW^WT
TW^W^WWTWT
TWTWTWWTWT

The first cart comes down the center, trips the pressure plate, which activates the last roller. That cart trips the pressure plate, which engages the roller before. And so on until the last one disengages all the rollers. That way It's ready for the next wave. The tracks lead to ramps that let the carts pop up the other side.

Code: [Select]
WTWTWTWTWTW
T<T<T<T<T<T
WGWGWGWGWGW

This is the re-entry, bringing all five tracks back together into one linear track for returning down to the fork.

Using it without the side tracks being connected will let you place a mine cart and have the dwarves push them into the rollers will let you add carts to an active track without having your dwarves standing on the track to get splatted.
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therealmarauder

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Re: Magmacart pump no decrease of DPS
« Reply #6 on: August 21, 2012, 01:30:55 pm »

Use a lift hill instead: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=114394.0

The second page tells you how to build a lift hill which requires no power at all. As much as this is a bug, and cheating and not fair at all and probably going to be fixed in a few versions and no fun at all, it requires no power, no gears, no rollers, just the mine carts, and by increasing the speed of the carts to maximum speed the spiral upwards can be
1) turned into a straight line, shortening t he distance
2) traversed in about 40 ticks.

That means that you could move hugely more with that many mine carts, to the point of outpacing a pump stack, and in less construction time.

Another note: Please give times in units of magma per tick - it's independent of machine. Also, did you compare the speed with the revised, reservoir-using pump stacks, which decrease temperature computations?
« Last Edit: August 21, 2012, 02:56:59 pm by therealmarauder »
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Perroquet

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Re: Magmacart pump no decrease of FPS
« Reply #7 on: August 22, 2012, 02:50:47 am »

Perroquet, how do you turn this thing off (when you have full magma reservoir for example). Just cut the power to the whole thing? Can that make some minecarts stuck on spiral tower?
I have connect one iron assembly on the lowest z-level so all cars can finish their route. Of course this has be done before you flood the chamber with magma (added in the main post)

Also:
Filling station lower level covered with magma:
Code: [Select]
##########   EVERYTHING HERE HAS TO BE MAGMASAFE (METAL MECHANISM, METAL CHAIN)
##########
#SDG######
###G######
##FGFFF...   1x3 Roller direction W->E
##FRRUF...   Tracks all EW
##FFFFF...
#.........
#.........
##########
This part allows magma-safe creatures to enter your fort because if fortification is in 7/7 liquid they are passable. Just that you know. :)
This is a good point. 1. You can exchange the door with a wall. 2. On the pump side there is a floor bar.
Do you have an idee how to secure the track part? Mhh. I have an idee but I can't test it right now.. (on work). It could be that the magma from the screw pump is enough to fill all minecarts so we can build instead of the fortifications walls.

Oh and one more thing. I think it is FPS (as frames per second) and not DPS (as deaths? per second). ;)
Fixed

I always send down the mine carts dropping through three ramps to throw them up the other side of the magma. Works well, and I can have multiple parallel tracks shooting through. I'm working on an automated switching system. Being able to send a bunch of carts, and have them pulled off to the sides by rollers, with each one deactivating the previous one in sequence, or alternately activating them. Either way, having the final pressure plate in the sequence re/deactivate all the others. I've also considered having them reach the top of the line on their parallel tracks, and then be turned by a 5 tile roller before dumping.

You could then have tracks that come in and use a roller to turn them, allowing you to add carts without any interaction from dwarves other than giving them a push to the rollers.
You don't need parallel tracks for filling, droping the minecarts or even on the spiral tower. If minecarts falling on active rollers they are pushed one after one (with a delay of ~7 ticks) so its like a machine gun.

Use a lift hill instead: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=114394.0

The second page tells you how to build a lift hill which requires no power at all. As much as this is a bug, and cheating and not fair at all and probably going to be fixed in a few versions and no fun at all, it requires no power, no gears, no rollers, just the mine carts, and by increasing the speed of the carts to maximum speed the spiral upwards can be
1) turned into a straight line, shortening t he distance
2) traversed in about 40 ticks.

That means that you could move hugely more with that many mine carts, to the point of outpacing a pump stack, and in less construction time.

Another note: Please give times in units of magma per tick - it's independent of machine. Also, did you compare the speed with the revised, reservoir-using pump stacks, which decrease temperature computations?
Sorry no use of bugs. As I wrote on the beginning that reliability is the most important part of this design. When there is a new version of DF you can't use your save or you have to rebuild and reset your whole magmapump. My design should work in all future version if there are no big changes on rollers, minecarts, weight, speed of the carts....
So feel free to build your lift hill but after this bug is fixed, you are welcome to build this or a similar design :)

I will add the data for magma / tick this day.
I have calculated the speed of the screw pump without a stack, only one pump because the pumps on top of the lowest can't be faster than this first one. You see there is no FPS decrease for the magma/second of the screw pump
« Last Edit: August 22, 2012, 03:07:14 am by Perroquet »
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expwnent

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Re: Magmacart pump no decrease of FPS
« Reply #8 on: August 22, 2012, 08:18:27 am »

Toady tends to leave exploits more often than not. Free energy machines are still possible and they've been around for years.
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Sutremaine

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Re: Magmacart pump no decrease of FPS
« Reply #9 on: August 22, 2012, 01:21:20 pm »

This bug will likely be around for a while, because ramp tiles actively pushing a cart is how the game simulates the effect of gravity on a moving cart.
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crekit

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Re: Magmacart pump no decrease of FPS
« Reply #10 on: August 22, 2012, 04:24:13 pm »

I really like this. I often avoid magma pump stacks because frankly I don't have tons and tons of iron and I'm OCD. This looks like it could be a lot cheaper!

Someone make a quickfort thing and give it to meh.
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Perroquet

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Re: Magmacart pump no decrease of FPS
« Reply #11 on: August 23, 2012, 01:37:23 am »

Number's with ticks:
Needed ticks for 1 route ( 137 z-level high) ~700 ticks
Distance between the cars ~11 ticks
Needed Carts: 700/11= 63 Carts
Magma/tick: 11 distance between cars / 2 magma per cart = 5.5 Magma/tick


One more thing about this powerless lift. It's like the danger room. Some of you use it and some don't use it so it's your choice but I think it's good to have a choice.
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backora900

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Re: Magmacart pump no decrease of FPS
« Reply #12 on: August 23, 2012, 05:52:17 am »

Magma/tick: 11 distance between cars / 2 magma per cart = 5.5 Magma/tick
I don't think you divided that correctly.
11 ticks per a minecart to pass afte the previous one
2 magma per a cart
=>(2 magma/minecart)/(11 ticks/minecart)=(2 magma)/(11 ticks) = 0.18 magma/tick  ;)

Also, it looks like overkill to me with this many rollers and minecarts. It is just too many compnents and material to make it work.
I tried design where you use rollers on every second level of that spiral tower and it's still pretty fast (someone even mentioned that a roller every 3 levels is enough.) The rollers are only on up ramp.
Filling area takes only 1 level and rollers are there set to low or lowest power (that creates some distance between minecarts and provide enough time for minecarts to be filled with magma)

Here are diagrams what I have on mind. I try to use your symbols from the first post:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

With this design I used "double helix" track where carts go on a track both up and down. But your idea of dropping carts back is brilliant and I have to try it. Hopefully this time I won't be loosing minecarts when they return to filling station because they were too fast or something. ::)

Also a note how fast that design of double helix worked - reservoir 5x5x3 (x,y,z) was filled with 6 minecarts within 5 minutes (100FPS)
I can't imagine why would you need to fill a reservoir any faster. Besides if you want to fill it faster you would probably use pump stack.


You can simplify this design even more if you use that exploit with track ramp accelerator. You can just place windmill above the pump and that is all power you will need.
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