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[crew4man]

If we're going to go improving bows and crossbows, I think that we should at the same time improve bolts and arrows. They should at least require wood and (optionally) a head material. Maybe feathers as well (might be a problem for elves, leaves maybe?).

Bolts/quarrels are generally made of pure metal. So having a head material would make no sense.

!

However, you guys are forgetting that you don't draw crossbows in a traditional sense. You can also use a crank mechanism. Therefore, a dwarf using a crank just might be able to oh-so-slightly bend the adamantine.

Maybe.

Also, crossbows should have bayonets.

[Blade Master Model 42]

Also, crossbows should have bayonets.

...That's actually a fantastic idea, especially considering how marksdwarves treat their weapons in a melee.

[Neonivek]

If that's the case, then explain adamantine cloth.
Adamantine is, even if what you claim about not bending is true, fragile only in the most technical sense. It is effectively unbreakable by any mortal force. If you had a place to stand and a long, rigid, and slender rod of adamantine, you could move the world. Assuming you used leverage right, of course.

Adamantine Cloth works in a similar way to Chainmail. Ring or hooks interwoven together. Allowing flexibility in the fabric even if the material itself is not.

As well Adamantine isn't indestructible. It has a very factual breaking point. It is only about 5-times stronger then steel. A Bar of Adamantine trying to hold up the world would shatter almost instantly.

Basically a five inch thick steel bar could hold about 100 tons before bending. Adamantine bar of the same thickness would hold about 500 tons before it just shatters or snaps. (and my calculations are off too... but you get the idea)

[Snow Gibbon]

On the adamantine issue:

Digging through the RAWs, Adamantine has a tensile yield factor of 5,000,000. Steel has a factor of 430,000. So yes, Adamantine ranged weapons are useless just like blunt weapons. But seriously, if an Adamantine bladed weapon is by far the best melee weapon, why bother with making any other weapon out of it?

[Escapism]

Again: how do you infer this from the raws? According to the wiki, TENSILE_YIELD "specifies how hard the material can be stretched before it will start deforming permanently. Determines a tissue's resistance to a latching and tearing bite. Defaults to 10000." Similar definitions for the other DF forces. There is no mention of how much it can be deformed without deforming it permanently. For all it's worth, adamantine could behave like some extremely durable yet elastic rubber. It's possible that the wiki is incorrect, of course, but it makes sense if you look at materials such as cartilage and sinews, which have equal force-resistant properties all around. A tendon would have a greater tensile yield if the token were to define how much it resisted a specific force without deforming permanently.

What I mean to say is that elasticity as implied by the common usage (rubber bands) of the word isn't defined yet. It'd make just as much sense, in terms of DF physics, to make a bow out of granite as one out of wood.

[Neonivek]

Well without ANY elasticity it means it cannot be stretched at all without just breaking.

The Tensile yield refering to the force applied to the object.

[GreatWyrmGold]

If that's the case, then explain adamantine cloth.
Adamantine is, even if what you claim about not bending is true, fragile only in the most technical sense. It is effectively unbreakable by any mortal force. If you had a place to stand and a long, rigid, and slender rod of adamantine, you could move the world. Assuming you used leverage right, of course.

Adamantine Cloth works in a similar way to Chainmail. Ring or hooks interwoven together. Allowing flexibility in the fabric even if the material itself is not.

As well Adamantine isn't indestructible. It has a very factual breaking point. It is only about 5-times stronger then steel. A Bar of Adamantine trying to hold up the world would shatter almost instantly.

Basically a five inch thick steel bar could hold about 100 tons before bending. Adamantine bar of the same thickness would hold about 500 tons before it just shatters or snaps. (and my calculations are off too... but you get the idea)

Alright, the thing about adamantine moving the world was hyperbole born of ignorance; I thought adamantine was stronger than that. Still, I'd say that "5x or so as strong as steel" (or ~11x, by Snow Gibbon's statement) counts as nigh-unbreakable for all intents and purposes at a medieval tech level, especially when combined with dwarven smithing. Now...uh, what was the original topic again? Oh, yeah, adamantine crossbows.

[NRN_R_Sumo1]

I honestly don't see why you couldn't use adamantine for a bow, please cite where it says adamantine can't bend.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adamantine dis-ambigs


Adamant, mythical material adamant or adamantine
Adamantine Spar, mineral adamantine spar, a variety of Corundum - plausible? However it is a gem type, with a hardness of 9 and may be magma proof? I don't remember the magma temperature off hand. (Corundum Melting point 2044 °C)


Adamantium, a fictional metal
Adamantane, a bulky hydrocarbon not magma proof, infact not even oven proof.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adamantine_lustre#Adamantine_lustre

[crazysheep]

You're meant to check the DF Wiki: df.magmawiki.com for DF-related information.

[Neonivek]

Still, I'd say that "5x or so as strong as steel" (or ~11x, by Snow Gibbon's statement) counts as nigh-unbreakable for all intents and purposes at a medieval tech level, especially when combined with dwarven smithing. Now...uh, what was the original topic again? Oh, yeah, adamantine crossbows.

Indeed, there would be very few things capable of damaging it in the Dwarf Fortress Time period... and anything that can would likely be something that would kill you in the attack too (such as being hit by a Bronze collosus, Balista bolt, or Catapult boulder).

As for Adamantine Crossbows... The issue is that unless it is a compound bow... you cannot make metal bows because the metal required for them (Spring Steel) does not exist yet. As well it being metal wouldn't aid the bow in terms of damage anymore then wood would.

Metal Crossbows are also impossible... but I always conceived that the shaft of the Crossbow was the part made of metal and otherwise the bow part of the crossbow was still wood.

You're meant to check the DF Wiki: df.magmawiki.com for DF-related information

Exactly... You can also check the raws and it also says Adamantine cannot bend, only break.

[Escapism]

Well without ANY elasticity it means it cannot be stretched at all without just breaking.

The Tensile yield refering to the force applied to the object.

Not having a defined elasticity is not the same as having a defined zero elasticity. No material has a defined elasticity.

Yes, specifying "how hard the material can be stretched before it will start deforming permanently". You do not, in a macroscopic sense, deform a bow permanently while drawing it.

Exactly... You can also check the raws and it also says Adamantine cannot bend, only break.

No.

[10ebbor10]

Exactly... You can also check the raws and it also says Adamantine cannot bend, only break.

No.

Yes. The values for which adamantine starts bending are the same for when it breaks. Ie, it doesn't bend.

[Escapism]

Read the edit of my post, also the other one:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Again: how do you infer this from the raws? According to the wiki, TENSILE_YIELD "specifies how hard the material can be stretched before it will start deforming permanently. Determines a tissue's resistance to a latching and tearing bite. Defaults to 10000." Similar definitions for the other DF forces. There is no mention of how much it can be deformed without deforming it permanently. For all it's worth, adamantine could behave like some extremely durable yet elastic rubber. It's possible that the wiki is incorrect, of course, but it makes sense if you look at materials such as cartilage and sinews, which have equal force-resistant properties all around. A tendon would have a greater tensile yield if the token were to define how much it resisted a specific force without deforming permanently.

What I mean to say is that elasticity as implied by the common usage (rubber bands) of the word isn't defined yet. It'd make just as much sense, in terms of DF physics, to make a bow out of granite as one out of wood.

[Neonivek]

In otherwords Escapism is wondering why Adamantine isn't just a soft puddy like substance that can stretch and do loops but will always return to its original shape afterwords because that is the strict definition of "Yield".

Ignoring that its breaking and bending values are the same... there is also the "Stress at Yield" value. It is 0.

[Escapism]

In otherwords Escapism is wondering why Adamantine isn't just a soft puddy like substance that can stretch and do loops but will always return to its original shape afterwords because that is the strict definition of "Yield".

Ignoring that its breaking and bending values are the same... there is also the "Stress at Yield" value. It is 0.

Indeed.

You continue to ignore my points while coming up with baseless ones yourself. There is no such thing as a "Stress at Yield" value. Try reading http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deformation_(engineering). Plastic deformation is not the same as elastic deformation.