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Author Topic: Migrants? Useless? What are you talking about?  (Read 2939 times)

Loud Whispers

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Re: Migrants? Useless? What are you talking about?
« Reply #15 on: August 23, 2012, 12:04:10 pm »

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Add more Dwarves, add more crossbows and group all your Dwarves together before attacking.

Azure

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Re: Migrants? Useless? What are you talking about?
« Reply #16 on: August 24, 2012, 06:29:45 am »

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Add more Dwarves, add more crossbows and group all your Dwarves together before attacking.
The movespeed argument is presuming melee dwarves that are traveling a moderate distance to engage instead of chillaxing behind a L-bend or in a pop hatch under the road. Even 6 or 7 tiles can be fatal to an unskilled melee dwarf that gets to a goblin ball first and alone. Do marksdwarves help? Yes. But let's presume that they're a bit busy pinking away at all the mounted gobs and a squad squirts through.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Migrants? Useless? What are you talking about?
« Reply #17 on: August 24, 2012, 09:38:16 am »

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Add more Dwarves, add more crossbows and group all your Dwarves together before attacking.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Let's assume all of our marksdwarves are indisposed. We've still got 120 or so military Dwarves swarming the goblins. Likewise the goblins aren't just standing there, they're running towards the Dwarves.
You seem to be under the misconception you can fight the goblins in close quarters without losing a single Dwarf life. Being in the vanguard carries risks. But 120 Dwarves fighting 60 goblins on an open field are going to suffer less casualties than 60 Dwarves fighting 60 goblins in a closed corridor. Knockbacks are wonderful things.

Berossus

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Re: Migrants? Useless? What are you talking about?
« Reply #18 on: August 24, 2012, 09:49:44 am »

Best way to buil massive tantrum spirals.
Ive worked with zerging a while, before switching to elite squads and its awesome. Its satisfying to have your woodcutter ambushed in the open, and watch him dismember 6 goblins single handedly because he is also your first captain and legendary axedwarf.

im not min-maxing my fortress or my dwarfs, so someone dies here and there, and my squads carry hammers and axes mixed in with swords, but i like this a lot more than to abuse every mechanic in the game to 100% efficiency.
I am playing this game, not working  :D
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My son, many speak of the honor in war.
My preferred method is to wait until their back is turned, then impale them with a pike held by someone else.
Preferrably from a distance.

VerdantSF

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Re: Migrants? Useless? What are you talking about?
« Reply #19 on: August 24, 2012, 10:55:36 am »

Best way to buil massive tantrum spirals.
Ive worked with zerging a while, before switching to elite squads and its awesome. Its satisfying to have your woodcutter ambushed in the open, and watch him dismember 6 goblins single handedly because he is also your first captain and legendary axedwarf.

I've always been reluctant to use soldiers as woodcutters due to general wonkiness with equipment when switching between the two.  I guess that's been fixed?

Berossus

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Re: Migrants? Useless? What are you talking about?
« Reply #20 on: August 24, 2012, 11:13:23 am »

Kinda, i guess.
Sometimes, they turn around and weave terrible destruction, sometimes they stay civilian long enough to get maimed... but since i am not too fond of getting shot in the back while trying to run away, all dwarves that go outside on a regular basis get outfitted with plate underwear.
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My son, many speak of the honor in war.
My preferred method is to wait until their back is turned, then impale them with a pike held by someone else.
Preferrably from a distance.

Oaktree

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Re: Migrants? Useless? What are you talking about?
« Reply #21 on: August 24, 2012, 11:34:48 am »

My perference is not playing "fair" with the goblins.  Chop them up a bit with traps, shoot a bunch of their mounts down with crossbows from behind fortifications, force them down into tunnels to negate their flying mounts, etc.  Then hit them with with a melee ambush from close range that includes a majority of well-trained and well-armored dwarves.  Harder to do early on in the fortress life cycle, but you do the best you can.

In a recent ambush I actually took on a mounted goblin squad in the open with a bunch of melee dwarves (about a dozen - master level in weapon or better, steel armor and weapons, mix of sword, spear, hammer, mace, and axe.)  The "rush" was from a tunnel entrance about 10-12 tiles from the goblins. 

The lead two dwarves got mobbed and spent most of the early stages of the combat getting knocked down by mounts charging them while they dodged or blocked multiple attacks by goblins and mounts.  Both went into martial trances, but the only offensive strike they made was one axe lord chopping the goblin squad leader's lower leg off.  (And I think this is the fate of even master dwarves getting into a fight against cavalry when heavily outnumbered - knocked around until a lucky hit takes out their shield or weapon and then they get swarmed and killed.  In return they might inflict a wound or two.)

Once more of the other dwarves waded in the goblins rapidly took a beating.  Few initial kills, but lots of broken bones, bruised organs, and lower limb chopping.  Then the mounts started dropping and things turned into a rout with the dwarves pounding the squad and their mounts into mincemeat.  Two goblins and four mounts escaped, and both goblins were missing one or two limbs.

Goblin infantry, on the other hand, appears to be dead meat to small numbers of legendary dwarves.  They're not big enough to knock over the dwarf as easily, and the counter strikes tend to take out attackers and whittle them down.  Add in martial trance and you see the "dwarven buzzsaw" effect too.  (Best case I know is watching a Level 7 axe dwarf caravan guard obliterate a goblin ambush team single-handed.)  For handling goblins with missile weapons or lashers a bit more care is taken - use traps, elite marksdwarves behind fortifications, or get them close to a closed drawbridge and use that to set up a set-piece close range assault so that they only get one shot each before the melee troops are in their faces and the marksdwarves are firing into them as well. 

And with 34.11 I think I have seen two "fixes" to make goblins slightly more dangerous. 

First, all I am seeing right now is cavalry.  Even with the goblin general appearing and then going away they still are all mounted.  (Though I have not seen the goblin civ leader yet - perhaps both have to go.)  It used to be that I would see a cavalry unit or two, but most of the goblins were infantry.   And after their general died it would all be infantry from then on.

Second, this goblin civ is wearing chain shirts and helms.  Previous experience was seeing combos like breastplate and metal cap.  (Is this a general fix, or does goblin armor preferences vary from goblin civ to goblin civ?)  This makes the goblins a bit better protected from attacks in general, but also makes hammers slightly more useful for beating them up with as compared to axes.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Migrants? Useless? What are you talking about?
« Reply #22 on: August 24, 2012, 12:13:31 pm »

My perference is not playing "fair" with the goblins.  Chop them up a bit with traps, shoot a bunch of their mounts down with crossbows from behind fortifications, force them down into tunnels to negate their flying mounts, etc.  Then hit them with with a melee ambush from close range that includes a majority of well-trained and well-armored dwarves.  Harder to do early on in the fortress life cycle, but you do the best you can.
I'm all for siege warfare. Large ditch with gatehouses separating the spaces between the river, arrow slits all around the curtain wall, leading to another gatehouse to the outer palisade which itself leads into the courtyard, and by extension the citadel and the castle. All the time this is happening bolts are raining down on the first invaders from the myriad of towers dotted around the walls and outer limits, supplied through underground tunnels. Once the goblins make it through the Palisade they have to get through yet another gatehouse (murder holes under construction), before making it into the courtyard.
The courtyard sharply opens up into a wide enclosed field where marksdwarves can still rain death upon enemies - and the Dwarves can use their numbers to their advantage, stationed across the large flat grounds whilst the goblins emerge from a narrow 3 tile wide path - harder for them to enter and exit.
One of the challenges I give myself is to always allow a path into my fort, but that doesn't always extend to having a way out.
Muahahaha
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