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[tenmillimaster]

It was also mentioned that the AK dealt more damage. This is only partially true; Military and Commercial loadings of 5.56/.223 have excellent terminal ballistics. 7.62x39 on the other hand, being more energetic, has the potential of being more effective. The most prevalent loading, M43, has very poor terminal ballistics, performing poorly when compared to 5.56 (but having excellent penetration). Commericial loading, which are more expensive, and other surplus ammo corrects this issue.


Due to the weapon being less controllable in bursts, I gave the AK a -1 accuracy modifier in my game.

[Aerie]

I hope you guys know that the AK47 is inferior to the modern M16 family in every way, right?

Can you provide any empirical evidence to support your claim?

[KA101]

Pretty confident any M16 would come out as requiring more maintenance than the AKs.  Given that the LCS generally isn't known for their attention to those sorts of details (especially those which train the first few points of Rifle through use), I'd hold that a more robust firearm would be the better solution.

(IOW, the M16 cannot be superior in every dimension: precision weapons tend to require additional maintenance, etc.)

[Tsuchigumo550]

What game even spawned this discussion?

[tenmillimaster]

Pretty confident any M16 would come out as requiring more maintenance than the AKs.  Given that the LCS generally isn't known for their attention to those sorts of details (especially those which train the first few points of Rifle through use), I'd hold that a more robust firearm would be the better solution.

(IOW, the M16 cannot be superior in every dimension: precision weapons tend to require additional maintenance, etc.)

The fouling of the AR system is much alluded to, but often misunderstood. Is the rifle dirtier and a little more sensitive than others? Yes. Does that matter, especially within the context of LCS? Not really, no.
http://www.defensereview.com/the-big-m4-myth-fouling-caused-by-the-direct-impingement-gas-system-makes-the-m4-unreliable/ Here's why. An AR 15 series weapon, with a light coat of lubricant (in other words, in the condition that an LCS member would typically get a well maintained CONSERVATIVE weapon) is pretty much good to go for thousands of rounds, despite the carbon buildup.

[KA101]

Pretty confident any M16 would come out as requiring more maintenance than the AKs.  Given that the LCS generally isn't known for their attention to those sorts of details (especially those which train the first few points of Rifle through use), I'd hold that a more robust firearm would be the better solution.

(IOW, the M16 cannot be superior in every dimension: precision weapons tend to require additional maintenance, etc.)

The fouling of the AR system is much alluded to, but often misunderstood. Is the rifle dirtier and a little more sensitive than others? Yes. Does that matter, especially within the context of LCS? Not really, no.
http://www.defensereview.com/the-big-m4-myth-fouling-caused-by-the-direct-impingement-gas-system-makes-the-m4-unreliable/ Here's why. An AR 15 series weapon, with a light coat of lubricant (in other words, in the condition that an LCS member would typically get a well maintained CONSERVATIVE weapon) is pretty much good to go for thousands of rounds, despite the carbon buildup.

Fair enough, given that the LCS stole that rifle from the MilBase.  If store-bought (in particular, an M249 from the Department Store?), though, the best they could hope for is an included instruction pamphlet on the care & feeding of their latest assault purely defensive weapon recreational firearm.

(I attended a gun-control town meeting and one chap demanded that "assault weapons" was a derogatory term.  Apparently a pistol with a 100-rd mag (presumably a Calico of some kind?) was perfectly suited to keeping under his pillow or somesuch, just in case an intruder happened by.  )

[Jboy2000000]

Since you guys are arguing about them you're making me want to ship them.

[roushguy]

Real-life assault rifles are widely disparate in their actual numbers, but at the close range most, if not all, LCS combat takes place in, I'd say nearly all of them would operate more or less the same. About the only bonus I can think to give the AK over the M16 is during a car chase. Let the AK either hit the cars less, or enable damage to cars so we can kill the cars out from under their drivers/passengers, while giving the AK a small bonus to that from its larger round. This would, of course, require a /SMALL/ accuracy impairment during such fights. The M16, of course, would operate as per normal.

[tenmillimaster]

Well, you also have to consider that SMG's and Assault rifles in LCS fire in bursts. A three round burst from an AK (in 7.62x39 ) is going to be more difficult to keep on target than a three round burst from an M16/M4 (in 5.56x45), which will pale in comparison to the controllability of a three round burst from an MP5 (9mm).

The length of the barrel also works against you here: the MP5 again will be much easier to work corners with due to its shorter length, and is easier to move from one target to the next (again important for close range encounters) than the m16/m4 or AK47. This is because having mass farther away from you will resist your movement of the firearm, making it more and more unwieldy.

Sight radius is another thing here: Longer sight radius is usually conducive to long range accuracy. Having shorter sight radius makes acquiring targets much quicker. Compare the length between the sights on an M16 and a MP5.

[Funk]

The hole AR system fouling dates back to Vietnam when the wrong type of powder was used in the bullets and troops where told that the gun was self cleaning.
 
is this the bit of the debate where how controllable a gun is gets mixed up with on accurate a gun is?
a full size battle rifles are accurate but are not controllable on automatic.

[roushguy]

Oh, right! That's how we could differentiate the AK and the M16. By changing the hit % of their multiple attacks. By making each successive attack harder or easier to land than what it is now based on realistic math, the game will be more varied, and will still let players get the pick of what they want without needing to do said math. IE if you want powerful bullets, but not so many hits with an automatic, get the AK. If you want a little less damage with more hits, use the M16. For SMGs, why not allow a chance to divert overkill damage to a new target? IE you shoot Police Gang Unit and shoot five times. Your first two shots are more than enough to blow his head apart, so your next three shots take a malus to hit and target Lawyer. It'd also make car chases more... exciting. 

[tenmillimaster]

I'm not a fan of being able to target mutliple targets (except maybe with the m249, because you would actually be covering fire, but probably not.)

ALSO: 7.62x39 penetrates better than 5.56x45.

[Zombi]

I'm not a fan of being able to target mutliple targets (except maybe with the m249, because you would actually be covering fire, but probably not.)

ALSO: 7.62x39 penetrates better than 5.56x45.

Wrong. 5.56x45 was a much higher velocity than the 7.62x39.

[Jonathan S. Fox]

I'm not a fan of being able to target mutliple targets (except maybe with the m249, because you would actually be covering fire, but probably not.)

ALSO: 7.62x39 penetrates better than 5.56x45.

Wrong. 5.56x45 was a much higher velocity than the 7.62x39.

That doesn't mean what you think it means. Standard M16 ammunition has poor penetration, and its penetration gets worse as the velocity increases, because it fragments more when it impacts at higher velocity. Bullet fragmentation causes significant injuries, but it's counterproductive when the bullet fragments in the cover you're trying to shoot through.

AK-47 ammunition is a very different story. You get a bullet with more than twice the mass, and with more force behind it, that doesn't fragment like the M16's bullets do. Soviet 7.62 out-penetrated 5.56 NATO by a huge margin. This stability meant it had less stopping power than the M16 or even modern AK-47 ammunition, but it's the main reason the AK-47 and the 7.62x39 are said to "turn cover into concealment"!

[Neonivek]

Ahh yes bullet physics

As penetration increases, bodily damage decreases.