Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 7

Author Topic: Broken Arrow - Fixed Archery Balance  (Read 33928 times)

Joben

  • Bay Watcher
  • Elder Thing
    • View Profile
    • Lazy Lizard Gear
Broken Arrow - Fixed Archery Balance
« on: August 26, 2012, 09:15:53 pm »

There has been quite a bit of talk on the various subforums about how powerful projectile weapons are in DF2012. Some say they make the game, particularly Adventure Mode, annoying and arguments about whether they are realistic or not go back and forth. I've done my own research and found, somewhat to my surprise that metal armor stops arrows and bolts quite well in real life. Hence this little mod.

So here we go:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Practical effect: If you're wearing full plate you're safe vs arrows and bolts of the same or lesser material. Safe in the sense of not instantly perforated. Lucky shots can happen. Bruising is common regardless of material, and hits to even armored hands can still break fingers. That seems as it should be as it should be.

This has been tested quite a bit in the arena. But I'm not sure how it will interact with things like item quality levels.
I'd appreciate it if some of you folks would give these setting a spin and let me know what you think.



---------------------
Sept 3, 2012.
A couple tweaks for you guys to play with.

v1.1 - Edge down to 5, launch force up to 27  which seems to improve damage to chain mail without altering performance vs plate very much.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)


« Last Edit: September 03, 2012, 12:18:24 pm by Joben »
Logged
Broken Arrow - A small stats tweak to fix unrealistically overpowered arrows and bolts.

My RTD games: Roll To Raptor (On hold), Dino Arena

Joben

  • Bay Watcher
  • Elder Thing
    • View Profile
    • Lazy Lizard Gear
Re: Broken Arrow - Fixed Archery Balance
« Reply #1 on: August 26, 2012, 09:29:23 pm »

One thing that came up in the discussions of game balance is that trying to adjust bow/arrow stats doesn't seem to do anything. There's actually at least one report on teh Bug Tracker right now complaining about that. I thought it was a bug at first too, but this morning I figured out that it just takes a far larger alteration than anyone would reasonably expect.

My, only half-joking theory, at this point is that Toady's finger slipped and he accidentally added a couple extra zeros to their launch force.

The way I have things set now if I make bow Shoot_Force = 1, arrows bounce off dwarf skin. If i set it to 10 they penetrate leather armor, the flesh below it, and shatter the bones beneath that. What's the Vanilla setting? 1000(!)

I did some mild research to pick my performance target, doing some reading and watching videos of actual tests where available.

Expectations are worthless. For example. I was annoyed that they kept breaking bones. I thought they shouldn't do that very often then I found this. Close range broadhead blowing straight through a moose shoulder bone. Apparently bolts chipping dwarf leg bones is totally justified.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_js9YzQfyU

Here is a typical example of what happens when arrows meet a breastplate of the same material; they either dent but deflect, or they may penetrate a little. But imedietely life threatening wounds would be rare. Ignoring the fact that IRL there would be other protective garments under a breastplate, I haven't seen an arrow or bolt of any description make it more than 2 inches past an iron or steel breastplate. That will only kill a human quickly with a lucky shot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCE40J93m5c&feature=related

Arrows do a LOT better against chain mail in general, but there is lots of variations in the rings and the way they are joined, so that's a hell of a subject on it's own. I'm going to trust DF to handle the difference between plate and chain and not try to calibrate for it specifically at present.

A dwarf in clothing, with mail shirt and a plate on top should be VERY hard to wound in the abdomen, even with steel bolts.
Logged
Broken Arrow - A small stats tweak to fix unrealistically overpowered arrows and bolts.

My RTD games: Roll To Raptor (On hold), Dino Arena

mastahcheese

  • Bay Watcher
  • Now with 20% less sanity and trans fat!
    • View Profile
Re: Broken Arrow - Fixed Archery Balance
« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2012, 12:08:45 am »

I really like this idea, I find it very annoying how in adventure mode, you can kill dragons and bogeymen with ease, and if two archers show up, it's all over.

I also find it annoying how an army of bowmen seem to be able to take on practically anything, you can train a dwarf for years, give him steel armor, and watch him take wooden arrows to the gut until he vomits to death, but if a wooden sword is used, it's turned away as if it's nothing.

I'm definitely going to be using this in my games.

Also, can I put a link to this in my sig? And if so, how would I get the link to work?
« Last Edit: August 27, 2012, 12:18:12 am by mastahcheese »
Logged
Oh look, I have a steam account.
Might as well chalk it up to Pathos.
As this point we might as well invoke interpretive dance and call it a day.
The Derail Thread

Igfig

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Broken Arrow - Fixed Archery Balance
« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2012, 12:17:23 am »

I've been looking for the right archery rebalance for a while now. If this turns out to work as promised, could I have your permission to add it to my Modest Mod?

Mura

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Broken Arrow - Fixed Archery Balance
« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2012, 12:20:09 am »

As I mentioned in another thread, check the contact area for them bolts and arrows. 2(!), as compared to a large dagger's 5. I think it is safe to say that by default, the projectiles don't use the usual flared arrowheads, but rather the smaller bodkin tips, which are much better at penetrating armor in real life (especially at the distances that DF archers engage in).

More balanced? Nolo contendre. More realistic? Maybe not.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2012, 12:21:52 am by Mura »
Logged
I have no idea where anything is. I have no idea what anything does. This is not merely a madhouse designed by a madman, but a madhouse designed by many madmen, each with an intense hatred for the previous madman's unique flavour of madness.

smirk

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Broken Arrow - Fixed Archery Balance
« Reply #5 on: August 27, 2012, 12:41:51 am »

Your most likely correct Mura, but Joben seems to have upped projectile edge from 2 to 10 as part of his tweaks, effectively making them broadheads. You could probably set that back to 2 and get something closer to what ye're looking for (I'd test it myself, but am currently running a different project).

Also,
 :o Odd's Bodkins!
Logged
When i think of toady i think of a toad hopping arround on a keyboard
also
he should stay out of the light it will dry out his skin
his moist amphibian skin
.

Joben

  • Bay Watcher
  • Elder Thing
    • View Profile
    • Lazy Lizard Gear
Re: Broken Arrow - Fixed Archery Balance
« Reply #6 on: August 27, 2012, 10:49:46 am »

As I mentioned in another thread, check the contact area for them bolts and arrows. 2(!), as compared to a large dagger's 5. I think it is safe to say that by default, the projectiles don't use the usual flared arrowheads, but rather the smaller bodkin tips, which are much better at penetrating armor in real life (especially at the distances that DF archers engage in).

More balanced? Nolo contendre. More realistic? Maybe not.

My thinking on it was that 2 was pretty absurd, that's only 1 more than blowdarts, which are literally wire when made of metal. I increased it, fairly arbitrarily, to 10, since it was more than 2, but much less than 20, which is what spears are set to. I think you can certainly make a case for 5, I'm not entirely sure how much difference it would make.

I calibrated this entirely on the kinda of data you're complaining I didn't acount for. I didn't even try to find out how well broadheads penetrate armor, I just assumed everyone in DF would be using bodkin type points for their military weapons.

Did you want the second video I linked to?
Those are steel bodkin points, fired from 110 pound draw bows at 20 meters. None of them even get the entire head through the steel breastplate. (Compare to vanilla DF where >90% of them would have fully penetrated) My actual nod to game balance was giving they slightly BETTER performance than shown in that video and quite a few others like it.

This mod's improved balance is a happy side effect, it's main point is reflecting the real world data I've found. If someone brings me new data I'll gleefully change the settings to as necessary.

[edit] This is interesting reading. http://www.currentmiddleages.org/artsci/docs/Champ_Bane_Archery-Testing.pdf
------------------------------------------------------


Also, can I put a link to this in my sig? And if so, how would I get the link to work?

Sure, the link part would go like this. <url=http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=115448.0>Broken Arrow</url>
just replace all the < and > with [ and ]

I've been looking for the right archery rebalance for a while now. If this turns out to work as promised, could I have your permission to add it to my Modest Mod?

By all means. Anyone who wants to use this can.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2012, 11:31:57 am by Joben »
Logged
Broken Arrow - A small stats tweak to fix unrealistically overpowered arrows and bolts.

My RTD games: Roll To Raptor (On hold), Dino Arena

mastahcheese

  • Bay Watcher
  • Now with 20% less sanity and trans fat!
    • View Profile
Re: Broken Arrow - Fixed Archery Balance
« Reply #7 on: August 27, 2012, 12:47:18 pm »

Thanks! I hope this mod catches on, I've already fixed my custom slings and atl-atls to meet this.

Brilliant work!
Logged
Oh look, I have a steam account.
Might as well chalk it up to Pathos.
As this point we might as well invoke interpretive dance and call it a day.
The Derail Thread

Mephansteras

  • Bay Watcher
  • Forger of Civilizations
    • View Profile
Re: Broken Arrow - Fixed Archery Balance
« Reply #8 on: August 27, 2012, 01:10:01 pm »

Hmm, interesting. I'll need to play around with this as well. Having more balanced combat is a good thing!
Logged
Civilization Forge Mod v2.80: Adding in new races, equipment, animals, plants, metals, etc. Now with Alchemy and Libraries! Variety to spice up DF! (For DF 0.34.10)
Come play Mafia with us!
"Let us maintain our chill composure." - Toady One

Zanzetkuken The Great

  • Bay Watcher
  • The Wizard Dragon
    • View Profile
Re: Broken Arrow - Fixed Archery Balance
« Reply #9 on: August 31, 2012, 05:36:57 pm »

Quote
One thing that came up in the discussions of game balance is that trying to adjust bow/arrow stats doesn't seem to do anything. There's actually at least one report on teh Bug Tracker right now complaining about that. I thought it was a bug at first too, but this morning I figured out that it just takes a far larger alteration than anyone would reasonably expect.

Science has been done, cracking another myth of the forum.
Logged
A Rose for a Kingdom (FF.net) - A YGO/RWBY crossover I'm working on that may take time away from posting.
Quote from: Eric Blank
It's Zanzetkuken The Great. He's a goddamn wizard-dragon. He will make it so, and it will forever be.
Quote from: 2016 Election IRC
<DozebomLolumzalis> you filthy god-damn ninja wizard dragon

Deon

  • Bay Watcher
  • 💀 💀 💀 💀 💀
    • View Profile
Re: Broken Arrow - Fixed Archery Balance
« Reply #10 on: August 31, 2012, 08:32:37 pm »

It works well in combination with arrow tweaking. I've made quite weak firearms in Post-Apocalypse mod, because with right material and ammo tweaks it's needed to make power armors to deflect bullets. Otherwise if I keep stats close to the vanilla, it's really hard to tweak it because ammo travels too fast.
Logged
▬(ஜ۩۞۩ஜ)▬
✫ DF Wanderer ✫ - the adventure mode crafting and tweaks
✫ Cartographer's Lounge ✫ - a custom worldgen repository

Drazinononda

  • Bay Watcher
  • I'm really too normal to play this game so much.`
    • View Profile
Re: Broken Arrow - Fixed Archery Balance
« Reply #11 on: September 01, 2012, 11:37:41 pm »

Another aspect to consider is the size of the ammunition. Currently arrows and bolts both default to [SIZE:150] which is 150cc volume. My estimations are that a bolt of this volume an inch in diameter would be almost a foot long. While this may be accurate for RL bolts, with an arrowhead on the end and a shaft of wood or whatever, in DF they are considered to be made entirely of their material, so a silver bolt would weigh almost 3.5lbs. Obviously a projectile that size traveling at any sort of proper firing velocity is going to do a ton of damage.
Logged
Children you rescue shouldn't behave like rabid beasts.  I guess your regular companions shouldn't act like rabid beasts either.
I think that's a little more impossible than I'm likely to have time for.

NRN_R_Sumo1

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Broken Arrow - Fixed Archery Balance
« Reply #12 on: September 02, 2012, 03:20:45 am »

Another aspect to consider is the size of the ammunition. Currently arrows and bolts both default to [SIZE:150] which is 150cc volume. My estimations are that a bolt of this volume an inch in diameter would be almost a foot long. While this may be accurate for RL bolts, with an arrowhead on the end and a shaft of wood or whatever, in DF they are considered to be made entirely of their material, so a silver bolt would weigh almost 3.5lbs. Obviously a projectile that size traveling at any sort of proper firing velocity is going to do a ton of damage.

That makes a lot of sense to me.
Dwarves shooting .50 cal bolts at goblins.
Logged
A dwarf is nothing but an alcohol powered beard.

Joben

  • Bay Watcher
  • Elder Thing
    • View Profile
    • Lazy Lizard Gear
Re: Broken Arrow - Fixed Archery Balance
« Reply #13 on: September 02, 2012, 12:45:16 pm »

Yeh...

Arrows are generally about 30 inches (76 cm) long. The modern target arrows I have are about 0.3 (0.76 cm) inches in diameter. That would be ~139 cubic centimeters.

So overall the dimensions seem ok, but that solid metal thing makes for some weirdness weight wise. And by extension the kinetic energy gets insane at reasonable speeds.  I donno if we can truly fix that though. Currently DF doesn't seem to support weapons or ammo made of multiple materials. So, no steel heads on a wooden shaft for us.

I suppose we could trade one inaccuracy for another, and set the SIZE so it make them a realistic weight. (How do quivers work in fortress mode, would that make them hold thousands of bolts?)


Does anyone know if the SHOOT_FORCE and SHOOT_MAXVEL numbers are supposed to corelate to any real life measurements?


Logged
Broken Arrow - A small stats tweak to fix unrealistically overpowered arrows and bolts.

My RTD games: Roll To Raptor (On hold), Dino Arena

Broken

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Broken Arrow - Fixed Archery Balance
« Reply #14 on: September 02, 2012, 05:43:21 pm »

Maybe bolts should be divided in two types? bolt/wood bolt with the same size as vainilla and upgraded metal bolts, made with
metal and wooden/bone bolts, with a size aproppiate for a arrowhead.
Logged
Quote
In a hole in the ground there lived a dwarf. Not a nasty, dirty, wet hole, filled with the ends of worms and an oozy smell, nor yet a dry, bare, sandy hole with nothing in it to sit down on or to eat: it was a dwarf fortress, and that means magma.
Dwarf fortress: Tales of terror and inevitability
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 7