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Author Topic: Broken Arrow - Fixed Archery Balance  (Read 45229 times)

mastahcheese

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Re: Broken Arrow - Fixed Archery Balance
« Reply #30 on: September 25, 2012, 08:34:31 pm »

WOO! I finally got my bone reactions finished, the reageant line is ridiculously long and awkward, BUT IT WORKS!

So here it is, my bolt mods.    ...Oh, by the way, turns out the ADJECTIVE token won't work on ammo, dang it, so I had to just add the descriptor to the name proper.

Ammo raws, includes both the tips used solely for the reactions, and the actually ammo itself.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Solid bolts are on top, so use it to replace normal bolts, following them are the actually ammos, then the tips for reactions.

Here are the huge amount of reactions to create all of them, for flare and bodkin, for all ammo-grade metals, as well as the finished bolts themselves.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
At the bottom you should see, BONUS! Obsidian flared tips, no fuel required, but only makes 1 stack of 25, but you'll probably be obsidian-farming, anyway.

And here is that Fletcher's shop to make all that.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Also includes a MAGMA Fletcher's shop!

And to make adding all this to the dwarf entity file a little easier,
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Just add to the dwarves, and there you have it.

Forging the arrowheads needs metalcrafting, as does making the fletcher's shops themselves, actually connecting the arrowheads to the wood or bone is weaponsmithing, and making stone flare tips is, of course, stonecrafting.

Please give me your feedback on this, I worked quite a bit on this, and haven't been able to do much in the way of actual combat testing, If I could get one of those amazing charts like the one Pirate Bob made, that would be great so I could tweak them to perfection.
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Might as well chalk it up to Pathos.
As this point we might as well invoke interpretive dance and call it a day.
The Derail Thread

Pirate Bob

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Re: Broken Arrow - Fixed Archery Balance
« Reply #31 on: September 26, 2012, 07:40:41 am »

WOO! I finally got my bone reactions finished, the reageant line is ridiculously long and awkward, BUT IT WORKS!

So here it is, my bolt mods.    ...Oh, by the way, turns out the ADJECTIVE token won't work on ammo, dang it, so I had to just add the descriptor to the name proper.

Ammo raws, includes both the tips used solely for the reactions, and the actually ammo itself.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Solid bolts are on top, so use it to replace normal bolts, following them are the actually ammos, then the tips for reactions.

Here are the huge amount of reactions to create all of them, for flare and bodkin, for all ammo-grade metals, as well as the finished bolts themselves.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
At the bottom you should see, BONUS! Obsidian flared tips, no fuel required, but only makes 1 stack of 25, but you'll probably be obsidian-farming, anyway.

And here is that Fletcher's shop to make all that.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Also includes a MAGMA Fletcher's shop!

And to make adding all this to the dwarf entity file a little easier,
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Just add to the dwarves, and there you have it.

Forging the arrowheads needs metalcrafting, as does making the fletcher's shops themselves, actually connecting the arrowheads to the wood or bone is weaponsmithing, and making stone flare tips is, of course, stonecrafting.

Please give me your feedback on this, I worked quite a bit on this, and haven't been able to do much in the way of actual combat testing, If I could get one of those amazing charts like the one Pirate Bob made, that would be great so I could tweak them to perfection.

I should eventually be able to test this (remind me if it doesn't happen).  I'm kind of behind with my testing, as other stuff keeps distracting me.  If you want to do your own testing, I'd be happy to guide you through that as well. 

What crossbow parameters did you envision using with these?  Or do you want testing to figure out what would be good there?  If you use the standard DF Force=Velocity=1000, then a slightly differently shaped railgun pellet is still going to go right through a dwarf...

mastahcheese

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Re: Broken Arrow - Fixed Archery Balance
« Reply #32 on: September 26, 2012, 07:34:35 pm »

I wasn't really going off of any real guidelines, mostly just for some basic placeholder stuff so I could get some preliminary testing and see if there are any differences at all, and then work on updating the findings and tweaking the arrows to see what results could be achieved to produce the most realistically functioning bolts.

Basically I just wanted to take the other comments from other posters and actually put them into a physical form, so we could see how well the ideas actually work, and possibly use them to make the whole experience worthwhile and more interesting, or at least educational.
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Might as well chalk it up to Pathos.
As this point we might as well invoke interpretive dance and call it a day.
The Derail Thread

Urist Da Vinci

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Re: Broken Arrow - Fixed Archery Balance
« Reply #33 on: October 04, 2012, 08:25:53 pm »

Starting from unmodded vanilla, if you lower IMPACT_YIELD on the bolt material by two orders of magnitude, bolts will deflect off armor rather than dealing blunt damage. If the bolt penetrates the armor it deals piercing/tearing damage as usual.

See http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=116151.msg3664968#msg3664968

sayke

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Re: Broken Arrow - Fixed Archery Balance
« Reply #34 on: October 05, 2012, 12:53:09 pm »

lowering the IMPACT_YIELD on the bolt material would have significant effects in melee combat though too, right?

what are all the variables that affect this? can we write a function describing their interactions?
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Emufarmers

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Re: Broken Arrow - Fixed Archery Balance
« Reply #35 on: October 11, 2012, 02:40:32 pm »

As you can see, these parameters render candy and steel invulnerable to all projectiles, and iron provides good protection against some, but not all, metals.  Also, there is no significant change to deadliness to unarmored targets.
Isn't bronze supposed to be comparable to iron in strength?  In your tests, bronze seems to do no better than copper.
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sayke

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Re: Broken Arrow - Fixed Archery Balance
« Reply #36 on: October 23, 2012, 11:49:36 am »

Been a while since I looked at raws, so just a few quick comments - Girlinhat demonstrated how 'directed pressure' is calculated for blunt weapons:

Code: [Select]
(Density * Volume / 1,000,000) / Contact Area * Velocity Modifier

does this formula apply to crossbows as well? if so, what are appropriate values for crossbow bolts, without getting too hardcore about assembling them from multiple materials etc?
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kuki

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Re: Broken Arrow - Fixed Archery Balance
« Reply #37 on: October 23, 2012, 04:41:10 pm »

I don't see how that formula can apply directly to crossbow bolts; they're edge attacks, not blunt, and their performance is clearly heavily affected by changing the crossbow shoot_force, which isn't part of that formula.
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squishynoob

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Re: Broken Arrow - Fixed Archery Balance
« Reply #38 on: October 23, 2012, 05:20:57 pm »

The attacks are blunted out by armor. Not that it stops them from doing grievous damage, that is.
Indeed, the quirk with ranged weapons is not a matter of penetrating armor or not, but rather having far too much blunt power behind them. The OP was quite right that it's a matter of a far too big SHOOT_FORCE; my own tests confirmed that; in vanilla, metal blow darts - not even bolts - could break a giant's bones through several layers of iron armor. Guess that Toady mostly shaped the values around wooden ammo which even in vanilla behaves properly - deflected by metal armor, but can hurt soft targets.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2012, 05:22:33 pm by squishynoob »
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pisskop

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Re: Broken Arrow - Fixed Archery Balance
« Reply #39 on: October 23, 2012, 05:25:17 pm »

I must ptw.  Was lurking this for awhile and so want this to work out somehow.
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Urist Da Vinci

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Re: Broken Arrow - Fixed Archery Balance
« Reply #40 on: October 23, 2012, 08:05:37 pm »

We now know the relationship between SHOOT_FORCE, SHOOT_MAXVEL, bolt weight, and the bolt's velocity. See: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=116151.msg3716892#msg3716892 and the rest of the thread for more info.

Thundercraft

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Re: Broken Arrow - Fixed Archery Balance
« Reply #41 on: February 21, 2013, 03:38:27 am »

WOO! I finally got my bone reactions finished, the reageant line is ridiculously long and awkward, BUT IT WORKS!

So here it is, my bolt mods.    ...Oh, by the way, turns out the ADJECTIVE token won't work on ammo, dang it, so I had to just add the descriptor to the name proper.

Ammo raws, includes both the tips used solely for the reactions, and the actually ammo itself.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Solid bolts are on top, so use it to replace normal bolts, following them are the actually ammos, then the tips for reactions.

Here are the huge amount of reactions to create all of them, for flare and bodkin, for all ammo-grade metals, as well as the finished bolts themselves.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
At the bottom you should see, BONUS! Obsidian flared tips, no fuel required, but only makes 1 stack of 25, but you'll probably be obsidian-farming, anyway.

And here is that Fletcher's shop to make all that.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Also includes a MAGMA Fletcher's shop!

And to make adding all this to the dwarf entity file a little easier,
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Just add to the dwarves, and there you have it.

Forging the arrowheads needs metalcrafting, as does making the fletcher's shops themselves, actually connecting the arrowheads to the wood or bone is weaponsmithing, and making stone flare tips is, of course, stonecrafting.

Please give me your feedback on this, I worked quite a bit on this, and haven't been able to do much in the way of actual combat testing, If I could get one of those amazing charts like the one Pirate Bob made, that would be great so I could tweak them to perfection.

I should eventually be able to test this (remind me if it doesn't happen).  I'm kind of behind with my testing, as other stuff keeps distracting me.  If you want to do your own testing, I'd be happy to guide you through that as well. 

What crossbow parameters did you envision using with these?  Or do you want testing to figure out what would be good there?  If you use the standard DF Force=Velocity=1000, then a slightly differently shaped railgun pellet is still going to go right through a dwarf...

Has anyone remembered to test this stuff? ??? It looks like mastahcheese put a lot of work into these reactions, workshops, and ammo and it'd be a shame to see it forgotten. If they are reasonably balanced, I'd be tempted to use them...
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mastahcheese

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Re: Broken Arrow - Fixed Archery Balance
« Reply #42 on: February 21, 2013, 08:06:42 pm »

Has anyone remembered to test this stuff? ??? It looks like mastahcheese put a lot of work into these reactions, workshops, and ammo and it'd be a shame to see it forgotten. If they are reasonably balanced, I'd be tempted to use them...
Actually, I had forgotten I wrote that stuff up, that should get tested...
Logged
Oh look, I have a steam account.
Might as well chalk it up to Pathos.
As this point we might as well invoke interpretive dance and call it a day.
The Derail Thread

Maklak

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Re: Broken Arrow - Fixed Archery Balance
« Reply #43 on: February 22, 2013, 07:57:03 am »

I think you could get away with fewer reactions by using:

[REAGENT:metal:150:BAR:NONE:NONE:NONE][REACTION_CLASS:WEAPON_METAL]

instead of

[REAGENT:metal:1:BAR:NONE:INORGANIC:SILVER][DOES_NOT_DETERMINE_PRODUCT_AMOUNT]

At least this is how it works in the Fallout Equestria mod.
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mastahcheese

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Re: Broken Arrow - Fixed Archery Balance
« Reply #44 on: February 22, 2013, 10:02:27 pm »

I tried that at first, it ended up with the stacks of arrowheads having multiple thousands of arrowheads, and the production of only 2 stacks would give enough experience to the crafter to promote them to legendary status.
Logged
Oh look, I have a steam account.
Might as well chalk it up to Pathos.
As this point we might as well invoke interpretive dance and call it a day.
The Derail Thread
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