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[Agent_Irons]

I pulled them right off the first page of this thread, but I still don't really know what I'm doing.

I mean wild animals are marginally harder to kill with .40 broken arrow wooden bolts than .40 vanilla wooden bolts, probably due to the lack of bone-shattering. Which is to be expected and good.

Raws for copy-pasta purposes

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Code: [Select]

[ITEM_AMMO:ITEM_AMMO_BOLTS]
[NAME:bolt:bolts]
[CLASS:BOLT]
[SIZE:150]
[ATTACK:EDGE:10:1000:stab:stabs:NO_SUB:1000]
[ATTACK_PREPARE_AND_RECOVER:3:3]

[ITEM_AMMO:ITEM_AMMO_ARROWS]
[NAME:arrow:arrows]
[CLASS:ARROW]
[SIZE:150]
[ATTACK:EDGE:10:1000:stab:stabs:NO_SUB:1000]
[ATTACK_PREPARE_AND_RECOVER:3:3]


Code: [Select]

[ITEM_WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_CROSSBOW]
[NAME:crossbow:crossbows]
[SIZE:400]
[SKILL:HAMMER]
[RANGED:CROSSBOW:BOLT]
[SHOOT_FORCE:70]
[SHOOT_MAXVEL:200]  This is just to make sure a near-weightless object doesn't go faster than the string could possibly go.
[TWO_HANDED:0]
[MINIMUM_SIZE:15000]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:3]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:10000:4000:bash:bashes:NO_SUB:1250]
[ATTACK_PREPARE_AND_RECOVER:3:3]

[ITEM_WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_BOW]
[NAME:bow:bows]
[SIZE:300]
[SKILL:SWORD]
[RANGED:BOW:ARROW]
[SHOOT_FORCE:50]
[SHOOT_MAXVEL:180]
[TWO_HANDED:0]
[MINIMUM_SIZE:15000]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:3]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:10000:4000:bash:bashes:NO_SUB:1250]
[ATTACK_PREPARE_AND_RECOVER:3:3]

Based on the advice of Pirate Bob, bumping contact_area to 10 for helmet/breastplate increased protection and upping the shoot_force for crossbows and bows (but crossbows more than bows, because natch). I'll test these a little more this afternoon and evening and report back, because partial armor penetration would be nice, especially when I put in FDII enemies a little later.

[Pirate Bob]

I mean wild animals are marginally harder to kill with .40 broken arrow wooden bolts than .40 vanilla wooden bolts, probably due to the lack of bone-shattering. Which is to be expected and good.

Ah, yes, wood bolts working poorly with these numbers makes perfect sense.  If you want them to work better, you can increase SHOOT_MAXVEL (back up to even 1000).  Wood is very light (and due to rounding errors gets mass zero in these calculations) and will get velocity equal to SHOOT_MAXVEL, which is the maximum allowed velocity.  All metal bolts have mass of approximately 1, and will get velocity equal to SHOOT_FORCE.  In other words, with your current raws SHOOT_MAXVEL controls the power of wood bolts and SHOOT_FORCE the power of metal bolts.  I think bone is also light enough to get SHOOT_MAXVEL, but I'd have to check to be sure.

I think your current raws look quite reasonable, and should produce a nice variation in bolt/arrow effectiveness against armor (at least for metal bolts - wood bolts will always be deflected, but that makes sense).

[Agent_Irons]

With shoot_force at about 70,maxvel 200 copper bolts pretty regularly defeat steel armor. The armor 'catches' them but they have too much momentum, which can shatter bones through the rigid armor. All bolts(even silver) are deflected 100% by rigid adamantine, though. Flexible adamantine (chain) transmits the force, which can kill you.

Wooden bolts can still cut flesh, but not steel armor. So that's okay. I think I'm going to bump crossbows down to about 50, and bows a little less (30?). I'll play around with that for a while before posting raws.(not that anyone needs them...) I'd like to have a chance to penetrate the nicer armors, but currently steel is useless against copper bolts, which is a little high.

[Agent_Irons]

At Shoot_force 50 Steel turns aside copper nearly every time(some bruising, which can eventually(theoretically) lead to pulping), and silver slips through the thinner parts (greaves) and can fracture(1/10 or so? rarely). Bronze does not turn aside copper. Copper turns aside wood(and probably bone) bolts, but of course they can always get you in the throat.

Hmm. I think that's about where I want it, actually. Copper bolts are (relatively) expensive, but armor-piercing. Steel-clad enemies need specialized munitions or simply millions of (copper) bolts to handle, which seems about right.

So that's the shoot_force pretty much where I want it. I think the MAX_VEL is alright?

[Pirate Bob]

Yeah, actually you're right.  I think copper bolts have a mass closer to 1.5 than 1, so you would need to reduce SHOOT_FORCE to around 50 if you want steel armor to stop them.  Iron/steel bolts have a mass closer to 1, and will be stopped more readily by steel armor.  To get around this weirdness of bolts having wildly different (not to mention very large) masses, I made a little mod where bolts/arrows are made from materials with density of wood but all other material properties of metal, to approximate bolts/arrows being made out of wood and tipped with the appropriate metal.  It is linked in my sig, assuming DFFD is working today (which does not seem to be the case).

Sorry I forgot that copper (and of course silver) are actually significantly more dense than other metals.

[Agent_Irons]

Oh man I had no idea copper would be strictly better than iron under certain circumstances, although obv if they are denser they are more likely to be able to beat the IMPACT_FRACTURE of metals.

With about 50 copper can beat bronze and not quite steel, and I infer steel/iron will be able to punch right through copper armor, so that all seems about right. Taking down rhinos and giant anteaters with wooden bolts requires a great deal of them in the arena, but they suffocate or bleed out, so I'm probably overdoing it. Not to mention the total lack of quality modifiers. I'm playing a fort with the tweaked raws right now and I have yet to actually really engage anything significant (my hunters are terrified of the giant storks native to the area.  ) They'll get over it eventually.

[pisskop]

No, I think you've got it spot on, it seems to work great.

(I hate wooden bolts now, it really makes me shoot straight for metal and use less crossbowmen)

[Agent_Irons]

No, I think you've got it spot on, it seems to work great.

(I hate wooden bolts now, it really makes me shoot straight for metal and use less crossbowmen)

They're -extremely- cheap now that wood is plentiful. So, they're good for shooting people in the throat and things, and hunting soft targets. And of course practice. Turn out two dozen crossbows and get your fishery workers to carry crossbows and quivers of wooden bolts around all the time, and block out the sun so your militia may fight in the shade.

[mastahcheese]

Well, I mean you're shooting them with wood.
I think it should suck a bit, although look on the bright side.

Dem elves use wood arrows.

[Agent_Irons]

Oh man you guys we're getting better physics in 40.05! I'm so excited! Adamantine bolts will fire at absurd speeds, giving them the armor-penetrating flesh-rending power they always deserved. You'll be able to bump up SHOOT_MAXVEL if you like.

[ToadChild]

Oh man you guys we're getting better physics in 40.05! I'm so excited! Adamantine bolts will fire at absurd speeds, giving them the armor-penetrating flesh-rending power they always deserved. You'll be able to bump up SHOOT_MAXVEL if you like.

Indeed, it looks like he fixed the rounding errors and is also changing some of their properties in the raws.

http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=6262
http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=5516
http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/mantisbt/view.php?id=6870

I'm excited to play with combat in .40.05.

[Art]

Pirate Bob does your mod make armor reduce some of the damage when penetrated, to simulate absorbing a portion of the impact, as well? Or does it only affect deflection rates?

I just took a silver arrow to the back of the head in unmodded .34. Shattering the skull through the leather hood. I was wearing a bronze helm but I don't know if it had any effect, the battle log didn't mention it.

I was pretty bummed.

[scamtank]

If there's a magic bullet (ha) to get that impact absorption effect going, it's screwing with the metals' MAX_EDGE numbers. If I remember Urist's science right, they determine only how much energy the swing/shot loses from punching through a layer of material.

[Art]

So would Agent Iron's mod be better for what I am looking for?

I am ok with with plate armor being penetrated, I just think it makes sense that some of the damage be reduced when that happens.

[random_odd_guy]

Now if only there was something similar to nerf bogeyman horns...