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Author Topic: Broken Arrow - Fixed Archery Balance  (Read 45862 times)

Agent_Irons

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Re: Broken Arrow - Fixed Archery Balance
« Reply #75 on: July 27, 2014, 01:19:14 am »

So would Agent Iron's mod be better for what I am looking for?

I am ok with with plate armor being penetrated, I just think it makes sense that some of the damage be reduced when that happens.
I haven't tweaked MAX_EDGE or indeed anything other than SHOOT_FORCE and SHOOT_MAXVEL for bows and crossbows.

However, with 50/200, steel armor 'catches' bolts and makes them bruise instead of cutting, so that does give some of the behavior you want I think.
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Melting Sky

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Re: Broken Arrow - Fixed Archery Balance
« Reply #76 on: July 27, 2014, 06:23:12 pm »

It looks like Toady has gotten around to fixing projectiles in vanilla. In the patch notes he cited the work of some of the good folks in this thread so I just wanted to say thanks for that.   :)
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Agent_Irons

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Re: Broken Arrow - Fixed Archery Balance
« Reply #77 on: July 27, 2014, 07:03:36 pm »

For reference, SHOOT_MAXVEL is approximately 200 and SHOOT_FORCE is 1000, but there was at least one velocity rounding bug affecting their performance. Anyone had a look at the new projectile performance?
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mastahcheese

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Re: Broken Arrow - Fixed Archery Balance
« Reply #78 on: July 28, 2014, 01:35:41 pm »

It looks like Toady has gotten around to fixing projectiles in vanilla. In the patch notes he cited the work of some of the good folks in this thread so I just wanted to say thanks for that.   :)
Yeah, I remeber Joben telling me (possibly in a PM, it was a long time ago) that he was hoping this work would eventually find its way into Toady's hands.
Since I haven't seen him in a while, I just wanted to mention that for him.
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Pirate Bob

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Re: Broken Arrow - Fixed Archery Balance
« Reply #79 on: July 28, 2014, 01:50:56 pm »

For reference, SHOOT_MAXVEL is approximately 200 and SHOOT_FORCE is 1000, but there was at least one velocity rounding bug affecting their performance. Anyone had a look at the new projectile performance?
I've been working on that here.  The very short story is now adamantine and steel plate stop projectiles.  The rounding bugs that Toady fixed have significantly changed the way projectile physics works, so that predictions based on 34.11 testing are not valid any more (or even close).

Art

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Re: Broken Arrow - Fixed Archery Balance
« Reply #80 on: July 31, 2014, 04:17:32 pm »

Pirate Bob, is  the 'light bolts' mod supposed to lessen arrow weight in previously generated worlds in adventurer mode? I applied it to my world and arrows still seem quite heavy.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2014, 04:29:09 pm by Art »
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Pirate Bob

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Re: Broken Arrow - Fixed Archery Balance
« Reply #81 on: August 01, 2014, 06:36:05 am »

Pirate Bob, is  the 'light bolts' mod supposed to lessen arrow weight in previously generated worlds in adventurer mode? I applied it to my world and arrows still seem quite heavy.
My initial guess would be no, although I am not a modding expert.  The light bolts mod will create various "metal tipped" materials (i.e. "copper tipped", "iron tipped" etc) which all have the density of wood and the other material properties of the associated metal, to simulate a wooden arrow tipped with metal.  I believe for these materials to be used in adventure mode they need to be present at worldgen.  I have verified that they are used in adventure mode (for all bolts and arrows, and nothing else) if you generate a new world using the mod.

Art

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Re: Broken Arrow - Fixed Archery Balance
« Reply #82 on: August 01, 2014, 12:01:29 pm »

I generated a new world and they showed up. So your explanation seems correct.
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Art

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Re: Broken Arrow - Fixed Archery Balance
« Reply #83 on: August 13, 2014, 12:22:42 am »

If I used both Pirate Bob's lighter arrows and Joben's broken arrow, would that lead to over nerfed arrows? I am wondering if someone who gets the physics could give some insight.
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Pirate Bob

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Re: Broken Arrow - Fixed Archery Balance
« Reply #84 on: August 13, 2014, 09:11:17 am »

If I used both Pirate Bob's lighter arrows and Joben's broken arrow, would that lead to over nerfed arrows? I am wondering if someone who gets the physics could give some insight.
Yes, this will make arrows almost useless.  If you use the lighter arrows, you want to set SHOOT_MAXVEL to about 833 (or something like that).  There should be a spreadsheet included in the zip file which shows data for different choices of SHOOT_MAXVEL.  833 will make steel nearly impenetrable, iron somewhat effective, and all lower armors only effective as helms.  You can tune it up or down from there to get what you want.

The velocity you want is the same for 34.11 or 40.05, as the changes were to a rounding error (which is irrelevant with the light arrows) and making [SHOOT_FORCE] give 20 times less momentum than in 34.11.

If you are playing 40.05, due to the bug fixes it is MUCH easier to get reasonable arrow behavior.  The vanilla behavior is that steel is nearly impenetrable and lower armors are useless, which is not bad.  If you want more randomness, you can set bolt contact area to 10, and [SHOOT_FORCE] to around 1500, which should give the same deflection results as applying my "light bolts".  Then, if you want all bolts to be lighter, you can decrease the size of bolts from 150 to say 50 or 30, and increase [SHOOT_MAXVEL] to around 500 (so that it doesn't cut off the speed of lighter bolts).  If you like the idea of having bolts made out of wood with metal tips, then my light bolts mod should work as-is in 40.05, although I haven't actually tried this.  I know that the bolt physics changes still give the same result, but I don't know if the changes to workshops etc to make the bolts appear still work.

Contact area and size can be found in
Spoiler: \raw\item_ammo.txt (click to show/hide)

while SHOOT_FORCE and SHOOT_MAXVEL are in
Spoiler: /raw/item_weapon.txt (click to show/hide)

I am just writing most of this from memory, so the numbers could be off.  If you would like, I can check the numbers more carefully in the evening.  Also, if you tell me specifically how you want bolts to behave, I can try to show you how to do that.

Art

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Re: Broken Arrow - Fixed Archery Balance
« Reply #85 on: August 13, 2014, 01:42:08 pm »

Thank you for that.

I want results similar to the videos posted at the start of the thread, but with the lighter arrows. Vanilla arrows are ridiculously heavy.

Arrows of the same material should sometimes pierce armor, not always, as in the video. And when they do penetrate, I think it should not be full damage but reduced, again, like in the videos. Not consistently bone shattering and organ exploding. More like fat and muscle tearing, and perhaps occasionally worse.

I realize v.4 has better physics but it will still be buggy in other areas for a long time. I imagine a lot of people still play v.34


Edit- I guess I don't need the arrows to simulate being made out of wood and metal. I just want them to be a reasonable weight if that can be done by modifying their size.

Double Edit- I see there is a big difference between candy/steel and the other armors and that can make fine tuning difficult. What stats would I need for iron/bronze armor to be mostly effective against iron/bronze/copper/silver bolts? I would like there to be occasional penetrations <20% but with reduced damage, as described above.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2014, 02:03:49 pm by Art »
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Pirate Bob

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Re: Broken Arrow - Fixed Archery Balance
« Reply #86 on: August 13, 2014, 02:12:15 pm »

In 34.11, if you want to avoid heavier bolts penetrating armor more efficiently than lighter ones, then you need to make all bolts have the same density.  This, combined with the fact that bolts are ridiculously heavy prompted me to make them all have the density of wood.

If you download the mod in my sig and use it as is this will result in moderate (I think about 30%) protection from iron armor, and poor protection (as in only from helms) for lower armor.

If you want all plate armor to deflect bolts all the time, you can set SHOOT_MAXVEL to 222 (equivalent to Joben's SHOOT_FORCE=20) or 288 (equivalent to Joben's SHOOT_FORCE=26).  I don't think it should make much difference, as arrows will deflect off all plate armor all the time with these numbers.  Maybe bronze (which is actually worse than copper) will be penetrated sometimes.  Also, all armor is useless against all edged attacks (including arrows/bolts) if the material is inferior to the weapon, with addy>steel>iron=bronze>copper>silver, so even when I say it gives "100% deflections" this is only if the bolt isn't made of a superior material.  But if you use Joben's settings an adventurer in full iron plate won't have to worry about arrows at all, except for the areas not covered by plate (neck, upper arms, face).

Unfortunately, due to the funky rounding error in 34.11, if you reduce bolt size, then the mass is less then 1, and gets rounded to zero, meaning that bolts are fired at SHOOT_MAXVEL, so you can't just use Joben's numbers and reduce the size.  You need to calculate what value of SHOOT_MAXVEL will give you an equivalent bolt momentum (which in 34.11 is approximately equal to SHOOT_FORCE because bolt masses are about 1).  For example, if you want bolts to be 10 times less massive, then you would need to set SHOOT_MAXVEL to 200 to get the equivalent if SHOOT_FORCE=20.  Wood bolts are 11 times less massive, hence SHOOT_MAXVEL =222.

Again, let me know if you want me to be more specific.  I can also run a quick set of tests to experimentally measure how effective armor will be if you settle on numbers you think you'd like to use.

Art

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Re: Broken Arrow - Fixed Archery Balance
« Reply #87 on: August 13, 2014, 02:18:59 pm »

How about the stats I outlined in my second edit?
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Pirate Bob

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Re: Broken Arrow - Fixed Archery Balance
« Reply #88 on: August 14, 2014, 11:10:16 am »

Sorry I forgot to check this last night.  Too busy feeding the baby...

Have a look at this post, which shows plots of %nonserious wounds vs. bolt momentum for standard armor (there is also a link to a spreadsheet with the raw numbers on DFFD, if you can get that to work). 

You didn't give specifics of what size you want to use for bolts, so I'll assume you will start with my "light bolts" mod and adjust the [SHOOT_MAXVEL].  If you want to do something different, let me know and I can recalculate.

To get 80% deflections off iron armor, you want to set bolt momentum to about 40.  This means setting [SHOOT_MAXVEL= 444] for my mass 0.09 wood bolts.  This will result in only about 5% "serious" wounds (tears, chips, fractures, jams).  At this level, projectiles should pose little threat to a fully armored adventurer.  Keep in mind that you will block/dodge a decent fraction, so it will probably take a hundred or more attempts for archers to actually hit you.

If you find this to be overkill, and want more like %60 deflection and 20% serious wounds, try setting momentum to around 60 [SHOOT_MAXVEL= 666].

Again, if this is not exactly what you are looking for or how you want to do it, let me know and I will try to modify the numbers.  I may not get to it tonight, as we have company coming, but definitely by this weekend.

Insanegame27

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Re: Broken Arrow - Fixed Archery Balance
« Reply #89 on: August 15, 2014, 06:54:21 am »

Here is a typical example of what happens when arrows meet a breastplate of the same material; they either dent but deflect, or they may penetrate a little. But imedietely life threatening wounds would be rare. Ignoring the fact that IRL there would be other protective garments under a breastplate, I haven't seen an arrow or bolt of any description make it more than 2 inches past an iron or steel breastplate. That will only kill a human quickly with a lucky shot.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCE40J93m5c&feature=related

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in the video, note the thickness of the armour.
knights in medieval times actually admitted that they were afraid of crossbows. One knight was wearing 4cm thick steel plate armour. He was shot and killed by a single crossbow bolt.
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