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Author Topic: Hopping out of a closet  (Read 1011 times)

LordBucket

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Re: Hopping out of a closet
« Reply #15 on: September 08, 2012, 08:06:33 pm »

I'm not sure how you can expect to remain friends with someone who is unwilling to accept your non-voluntary aspects.

That's not the point. Maybe you can't or won't. But perceiving them as unworthy of your friendship...again, seems like exactly the sort of thinking that's creating a problem in the first place. Perceiving someone as unworthy because of their beliefs regarding proper sexuality very similar to perceiving them as unworthy because of their particular preferences regarding sexuality.

For example, I would say that:

"I'm sorry you don't accept me. I still like you and want to be your friend, but I understand what I am isn't compatible with your worldview and therefore you don't want to be around me. And that's unfortunate."

...is healthier thinking than:

"Oh, well if you can't accept me for who I am then obviously you're a bigot and therefore beneath me and unworthy of my time."

Perceiving someone as "unworthy" and therefore rejecting them is exactly the behavior that is at issue here. I don't think it matters so much what the precise motivation for the perception is. I would caution anyone who wants to be accepted regardless of the sexuality to refrain from rejecting people for their beliefs.

MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Hopping out of a closet
« Reply #16 on: September 08, 2012, 08:12:28 pm »

"I'm sorry you don't accept me. I still like you and want to be your friend, but I understand what I am isn't compatible with your worldview and therefore you don't want to be around me. And that's unfortunate."

...is healthier thinking than:

"Oh, well if you can't accept me for who I am then obviously you're a bigot and therefore beneath me and unworthy of my time."

Perceiving someone as "unworthy" and therefore rejecting them is exactly the behavior that is at issue here. I don't think it matters so much what the precise motivation for the perception is. I would caution anyone who wants to be accepted regardless of the sexuality to refrain from rejecting people for their beliefs.
I don't know about you, but I certainly think that bigots are beneath me and unworthy of my time. The first statement is just so...weak. It's like your apologizing for yourself.
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LordBucket

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Re: Hopping out of a closet
« Reply #17 on: September 08, 2012, 08:13:28 pm »

I certainly think that bigots are beneath me and unworthy of my time.

Why?

G-Flex

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Re: Hopping out of a closet
« Reply #18 on: September 08, 2012, 08:15:59 pm »

That question aside, I'd say that bigotry in itself is a damn good reason not to like someone, and that their bigotry toward you is a damn good reason not to want to associate with them.

Also, I find it really suspect and, frankly, quite shitty that you'd compare intolerant beliefs to being gay. One of those is voluntary. The other isn't. Also, one of them is harmful and the other isn't.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Hopping out of a closet
« Reply #19 on: September 08, 2012, 08:16:27 pm »

I certainly think that bigots are beneath me and unworthy of my time.
Why?
Bigotry is a severely outdated and socially harmful manner of acting. It is not just subjectively, but objectively (in the most objective way a sociological concept can exist, that is) worse than being tolerant of other people. I have a limited amount of time to expend, and I want to spend that time hanging out with bigots no more than I want to spend it hanging out with people who think that the divine right of monarchy is the correct way to run government.
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LordBucket

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Re: Hopping out of a closet
« Reply #20 on: September 08, 2012, 08:21:44 pm »

This is unlikely to be a productive conversation. I'm going to choose my battles here, and refrain from this one.

I simply repeat my caution: if one wishes to be perceived by others as worthy, I advise against perceiving others as unworthy.

G-Flex

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Re: Hopping out of a closet
« Reply #21 on: September 08, 2012, 08:22:48 pm »

It's not about being "worthy" or "unworthy". It's about judging certain traits as good or bad, or even simply as ones you don't want to be around because they're harmful. Bigotry is harmful, and having a friend who is bigoted against what you are is also potentially harmful.
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Leafsnail

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Re: Hopping out of a closet
« Reply #22 on: September 08, 2012, 08:31:56 pm »

I simply repeat my caution: if one wishes to be perceived by others as worthy, I advise against perceiving others as unworthy.
Unless they disagree with you on the internet, of course.
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kaijyuu

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Re: Hopping out of a closet
« Reply #23 on: September 08, 2012, 09:43:51 pm »

Haha, yeah claiming that because you're asking others to put up with an act that harms no one, you must put up with an act that DOES harm people, is absolutely ridiculous.

I can see an argument along the lines of "give them time so they can come around," though. Some predispositions are difficult to change, but can still be done. Depending on the circumstances such as their upbringing, their bigotry can very well be the fault of those who indoctrinated them into it rather than their own, and if that's the case they'll come around as soon as their realize and resolve their cognitive dissonance.

EDIT:
I'm not sure how you can expect to remain friends with someone who is unwilling to accept your non-voluntary aspects.
Why the "non-voluntary" clause? That argument certainly doesn't help me, as I can choose to act straight as an arrow if I wish.

Doesn't matter if it's voluntary or not. Anything that isn't harmful is worthy of acceptance. Anything that is harmful, isn't.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2012, 09:52:18 pm by kaijyuu »
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Hopping out of a closet
« Reply #24 on: September 08, 2012, 10:17:19 pm »

EDIT:
I'm not sure how you can expect to remain friends with someone who is unwilling to accept your non-voluntary aspects.
Why the "non-voluntary" clause? That argument certainly doesn't help me, as I can choose to act straight as an arrow if I wish.
You aren't choosing to be straight though, you're choosing to act.
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The Fool

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Re: Hopping out of a closet
« Reply #25 on: September 08, 2012, 10:56:51 pm »

...Let's refrain from sociological discussions on sexualities in the Life Advice boards. There is always the General Discussion boards if you want to transfer it. Regardless we all reached a point, if they don't accept it then we shouldn't be friends. I couldn't imagine being friends with someone that dislikes me for who I am anyways.
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Barbarossa TSG

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Re: Hopping out of a closet
« Reply #26 on: September 09, 2012, 01:01:56 am »

Congratulations, The Fool! Spiffy new flag you have there.
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Hubris Incalculable

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Re: Hopping out of a closet
« Reply #27 on: September 09, 2012, 01:18:06 am »

Congratulations, The Fool! Spiffy new flag you have there.
  ??? The "spiffy new flag" has been there since before this thread opened.
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Barbarossa TSG

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Re: Hopping out of a closet
« Reply #28 on: September 09, 2012, 01:49:04 am »

Huh. Well, I haven't had much practice at looking at signature pictures yet, having only turned them on a bit more than a week ago.

Spiffy old flag you have there!
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Muffindog

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Re: Hopping out of a closet
« Reply #29 on: September 09, 2012, 11:54:27 am »

Hey, you've got through the hardest part. Coming out to one's family is usually harder than coming out to friends, at least in most cases.

Even though it's not always easy, we have to put more faith into the people around us. We humans really are prone to misunderstandings and mistakes, but we're not monsters. They are your friends and they surely didn't hang out for years with you because of your sexual orientation, so they shouldn't stop doing it only because it's different than they used to believe. Also, look here - you got supportive comments from people that you have never met in real life (pardon me if some of you guys did meet irl), so why would you be concerned about friends reacting any different then?

While I do agree with the people on the forums and that you shouldn't let them treat you badly because of who you are, but please do have some patience should they have a hard time grasping what you told them. As Shook said, put yourself in their position.

Good luck, take heart, and keep us updated :D
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