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Author Topic: My coming out of the closet issues.  (Read 11868 times)

kaijyuu

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My coming out of the closet issues.
« on: September 19, 2012, 07:56:22 pm »

Well, looks like I'm still having problems with this, and could use some advice. I don't want to keep cluttering up the emotion threads in GD though.

Links to previous events:
My announcing my coming out and the ensuing fallout.
Yesterday's... interesting event.


Today I was informed that I "should've come to them three years ago [when I first realized I was bi, as I told them] so I could've gotten help." I also got a monologue about how pornography is Evil (tm) and how it's going to "destroy my life."

Is this the point where I stop being understanding to them? I've tried being very patient and not trying to take any moral high grounds or play any victim cards, even though I'd probably be justified in doing so.

I'm not doing this to prove myself "right." I know I'm right and nothing is wrong with me. I don't need vindication. I need acceptance. I care about what my family thinks of me. I want them to come to my wedding some day and be happy for me, not just be there out of obligation. They're my family and I love them :( I want to be loved back. All of me.

I've told them this. They just keep parroting "we don't agree with your lifestyle choice" over and over along with empty "I love you"s. I know they actually do care about me, otherwise I'd be out on the street right now. They do love me. Their words are just empty when they say it.

How can I help them?
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Quote from: Chesterton
For, in order that men should resist injustice, something more is necessary than that they should think injustice unpleasant. They must think injustice absurd; above all, they must think it startling. They must retain the violence of a virgin astonishment. When the pessimist looks at any infamy, it is to him, after all, only a repetition of the infamy of existence. But the optimist sees injustice as something discordant and unexpected, and it stings him into action.

Jervill

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Re: My coming out of the closet issues.
« Reply #1 on: September 19, 2012, 08:05:36 pm »

They arrived at these conclusions because they're religious, correct?

Perhaps try to persuade them using religious arguments based in theology, there are arguments out there from progressive Christians that support LGBT individuals.  Although I'm not sure how much Mormonism complicates the issue here (aside from the Mormon Church being ridiculously anti-LGBT).  Try to speak to them on their level, it may be the only way.
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LordBucket

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Re: My coming out of the closet issues.
« Reply #2 on: September 19, 2012, 08:06:47 pm »

How can I help them?

By not attempting to impose your beliefs on them, just as you don't wish them to impose theirs on you.

You saying that you want to "help them" by making them see things your way is just as insulting and demeaning to them as their suggestion that if you'd gone to them sooner they could have "helped" you.

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They're my family and I love them

empty "I love you"s.
Quote
"should've come to them three years ago [when I first realized I was bi, as I told them] so I could've gotten help."

How can I help them?

Do you not see the similarities? Stop trying to make them see things your way. It's an unhappy path.

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I need acceptance.

Acceptance cannot be compelled. Only given freely.

You cannot choose for them whether they accept you. You can only choose for yourself whether you accept them.

The Fool

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Re: My coming out of the closet issues.
« Reply #3 on: September 19, 2012, 08:31:56 pm »

Is this the point where I stop being understanding to them? I've tried being very patient and not trying to take any moral high grounds or play any victim cards, even though I'd probably be justified in doing so.

You are yourself, and you should accept that they may not accept you right away or at all. Religion has deep roots that don't always disappear. If you just be yourself, and I'm sure that they'll see that you're still the child they raised. It's not like you're a drug addict or anything, so I would really hope they can get over it.

When I admitted I was pansexual (I worded it as bi, but whatever) I didn't change my day to day life at all. I still made coffee in the morning for my dad and I, and I still talked with them about the usual things. My advice is to not change a thing.

One last thing, a gay relationship should be treated just like a hetero relationship. Take your time to ease the person you're going to be with into you and your family's daily life. A solid relationship is a good thing, especially if your parents are skeptical.
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Blargityblarg

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Re: My coming out of the closet issues.
« Reply #4 on: September 19, 2012, 08:34:27 pm »

Y'might wanna disabuse them of the notion that being gay is a lifestyle choice, incidentally.
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The Fool

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Re: My coming out of the closet issues.
« Reply #5 on: September 19, 2012, 08:54:46 pm »

Y'might wanna disabuse them of the notion that being gay is a lifestyle choice, incidentally.

When I hear gay as a lifestyle choice I immediately think of all the gay hook-up sites there are (there are a lot of them and from what I hear they have a lot of creepers). If there was ever a reason for a negative view on gay relationships it's that. That was the main reason I said to take your time with your relationship. If they can see that it's the same as a hetero relationship, just with another guy, then I'm sure they'll feel a lot better about it.
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LordBucket

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Re: My coming out of the closet issues.
« Reply #6 on: September 19, 2012, 08:56:06 pm »

Y'might wanna disabuse them of the notion that being gay is a lifestyle choice, incidentally.

"I can't help myself I was born this way" is  not an argument that's likely to be helpful here. If somebody really believes that (insert x here)-sexuality is acceptable, they don't need to blame fate or say it's not their fault because they had no choice in the matter.

Doing so also invites unwanted "help" in the form of people who believe differently.

Bob: "It's not my choice! I was born this way!"
Tom: "Come with us to church. Let Jesus help you."
Bob: "...oh, wow. I totally walked into that, didn't I?"


Speaking from my own experience, the homosexuals I've respected and liked most have been those who say they like it. Not the ones who blame fate, or upbringing, or whatever.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2012, 08:57:54 pm by LordBucket »
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: My coming out of the closet issues.
« Reply #7 on: September 19, 2012, 09:03:04 pm »

You can't make them accept it. Try to be as financially independent as possible as quickly as possible and let them deal with it.

Whatever you do, don't agree to stop looking at pornography or getting help from Jesus. If you give them a concession they'll never stop trying to get more.
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kaijyuu

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Re: My coming out of the closet issues.
« Reply #8 on: September 19, 2012, 09:08:43 pm »

They arrived at these conclusions because they're religious, correct?

Perhaps try to persuade them using religious arguments based in theology, there are arguments out there from progressive Christians that support LGBT individuals.  Although I'm not sure how much Mormonism complicates the issue here (aside from the Mormon Church being ridiculously anti-LGBT).  Try to speak to them on their level, it may be the only way.
I haven't really pressured them for their reasons. I suppose I should. Assuming it's religion (probably)... I probably could debate theology, but they know I'm agnostic so I dunno. As for Mormonism, it doesn't have any additional doctrine against LGBT stuff, unless you count what high ranking officials have said over the years (note: the head of the church is considered a prophet just as much as any in the bible, so their speeches and such are considered on the same level as scripture. Despite, of course, various contradictions, but I won't get into that...).

You are yourself, and you should accept that they may not accept you right away or at all. Religion has deep roots that don't always disappear. If you just be yourself, and I'm sure that they'll see that you're still the child they raised. It's not like you're a drug addict or anything, so I would really hope they can get over it.

When I admitted I was pansexual (I worded it as bi, but whatever) I didn't change my day to day life at all. I still made coffee in the morning for my dad and I, and I still talked with them about the usual things. My advice is to not change a thing.

One last thing, a gay relationship should be treated just like a hetero relationship. Take your time to ease the person you're going to be with into you and your family's daily life. A solid relationship is a good thing, especially if your parents are skeptical.
Alright. This is pretty much what I'm doing. If anything's different, I'm vastly more talkative and outgoing. I was holding back a lot of secrets so I was pretty silent beforehand out of fear of letting things slip.

Y'might wanna disabuse them of the notion that being gay is a lifestyle choice, incidentally.
Honestly, *I* don't buy that as a valid justification :P Choice is irrelevant to me whether it's "good" or "bad," so I'm not going to pull out an argument I don't agree with. It's not bad because there's no reason for it to be considered bad. That's it.

I've already told them that it's not really a choice, anyway. I was asked what it was that "made me change" by my mother, who apparently thinks everything is the result of Evil Outside Influences. I told her it's just who I was, and I think she accepted it (she said so anyway).

You can't make them accept it. Try to be as financially independent as possible as quickly as possible and let them deal with it.

Whatever you do, don't agree to stop looking at pornography or getting help from Jesus. If you give them a concession they'll never stop trying to get more.
They still ask me to come to family prayers and I've been consenting so far. I think I'll stop that one, in case they have any more delusions  :-\

And I don't want to "make" them do anything. I am however confident that they're good people and just indoctrinated. Anyone can change. I'm confident of that. I just don't want to screw up and make things worse :(



I just came back from an ice cream trip with them (yay), and had some decent conversation about goals in life and such. I don't know if they're coming around or not, but I'm not getting thrown out of the house. They're still going to help with college and my upcoming move.
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Quote from: Chesterton
For, in order that men should resist injustice, something more is necessary than that they should think injustice unpleasant. They must think injustice absurd; above all, they must think it startling. They must retain the violence of a virgin astonishment. When the pessimist looks at any infamy, it is to him, after all, only a repetition of the infamy of existence. But the optimist sees injustice as something discordant and unexpected, and it stings him into action.

MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: My coming out of the closet issues.
« Reply #9 on: September 19, 2012, 09:17:55 pm »

I don't know if they're coming around or not, but I'm not getting thrown out of the house. They're still going to help with college and my upcoming move.
And how sure are you of these things? No one ever suspects their own parents until it is too late.
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Quote from: Thomas Paine
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.
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No Gods, No Masters.

kaijyuu

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Re: My coming out of the closet issues.
« Reply #10 on: September 19, 2012, 09:18:40 pm »

Because they keep pressuring me for information on the school so they can set up their financial side of the bargain.
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Quote from: Chesterton
For, in order that men should resist injustice, something more is necessary than that they should think injustice unpleasant. They must think injustice absurd; above all, they must think it startling. They must retain the violence of a virgin astonishment. When the pessimist looks at any infamy, it is to him, after all, only a repetition of the infamy of existence. But the optimist sees injustice as something discordant and unexpected, and it stings him into action.

The Fool

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Re: My coming out of the closet issues.
« Reply #11 on: September 20, 2012, 12:16:59 am »

I think if they're comfortable to go have ice cream with you that everything will be alright. Keep us posted on how things unfold in the next few days though.

Also the fact that they're talking about your future and school finances is another good sign.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2012, 12:20:08 am by The Fool »
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Heron TSG

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Re: My coming out of the closet issues.
« Reply #12 on: September 20, 2012, 09:45:22 am »

Good job coming out, Kaijyuu! I agree, if they're still carrying on with helping you with school, I don't think you have anything to fear.

(I know I'm a few days late, but I've been busy moving myself.  :P )
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Glowcat

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Re: My coming out of the closet issues.
« Reply #13 on: September 20, 2012, 11:18:37 pm »

"I can't help myself I was born this way" is  not an argument that's likely to be helpful here. If somebody really believes that (insert x here)-sexuality is acceptable, they don't need to blame fate or say it's not their fault because they had no choice in the matter.

Doing so also invites unwanted "help" in the form of people who believe differently.

You mean like...

Quote
Today I was informed that I "should've come to them three years ago [when I first realized I was bi, as I told them] so I could've gotten help." I also got a monologue about how pornography is Evil (tm) and how it's going to "destroy my life."

Sounds like they're already considering "help" to cure tehgay... If they're blaming pornography it seems likely they're coming at this from a completely baseless angle and don't understand the issue.

Despite it being fine even if it was just a choice, at least get across that your preferences are indeed a part of your own nature. After all, straight people never question their feelings for the opposite sex, but that's just how privilege works. It's unfair of them to start labeling your own romantic inclinations are more or less valid and if they truly loved you they'd help by accepting you for who you are and not who they want you to be.

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Telgin

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Re: My coming out of the closet issues.
« Reply #14 on: September 21, 2012, 09:30:07 am »

This isn't something I can really relate to intimately, but I think you're going about this in about the best way you reasonably can.  Being honest with them is the best first step.  They didn't throw you out of the house, and clearly seem to still care about you (if they are considering giving you "help", then they obviously care, even if their methods are misguided).

I think that this is a situation where time is the only real solution.  They'll get more used to it with time.  That's how this sort of stuff works.

Heck, I hate to admit that I used to be mildly homophobic because of my family and religious upbringing.  My best friend since middle school is homosexual though, and over the course of a few years I completely changed to realize that it's not a big deal at all.  He didn't even have to admit he was a homosexual to me.  Just interacting with him and realizing he was still a person was all it took.

Being your parents, I would strongly suspect that they'll quickly come to accept it.  They may never like it, but they'll accept it.  I'd also echo the suggestion to just play it down, since nothing has really changed with you.  You're just not hiding anything anymore.  There may not even be any "changes" in this case to ease your family into, but something like a boyfriend is probably not the thing you want to just drop on them tomorrow, for example.
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