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[StubbornAlcoholic]

Just out of curiosity, is it normal to get a Deep Metal/Shallow Metal/Flux embark site with "frequent" minerals with practically zilch in way of useful metals?

I'm very new to the metal industry side of the game, but my most recent embark I dug down 20 z levels, extensively probed the upper Sedimentary layers and found...no Iron or Copper at all.

After going down all those layers and just finding a load of useless "cobalt ore" (that obviously can't be smelted to cobalt) and a load of Zinc ore (no copper to go with it), I got frustrated and installed DFHack to see what my world contained.

DFHack probed the entire world, and found only Cobalt, Zinc, Adamantine, Gold, Silver. There was a small amount of copper on Z level 80 o_0

Just kind of surprised I suppose, it's a bit frustrating because it's made any sort of advanced equipment production nigh-impossible. By contrast my last embark I dug 2 squares into the nearest mountain and randomly bumped into practically infinite magnetite for 4 layers solid!

[brucemo]

If you get magnetite, you'll get a lot.

But yes, there are maps with nothing.  Toady has said that he wants to emphasize trade, and this would surely do it.

If you want to play a map with poor metals, you can get metals by buying every metal thing from every caravan and melting it.

You can use DFHack while at the map screen prior to embark, so you can know what you'll get before you take the time to embark.

[thiosk]

I think once a player has learned some basics, getting a viable metal industry from imported goblinite and trade is quite viable (MASTERWORK FOOD IS GROSSLY OVERVALUED IN TRADE). 

Not having the initial metal to begin is most painful for a new player.  I enjoy having a nice steel industry, but thats just because I like making stuff.  Once you learn to clobber sieges, you begin to appreciate the vast quantities of metal the goblins are importing.

 I'm considering building an entire tower out of imported goblinite copper, but I might turn it into brass first...

[StubbornAlcoholic]

I think once a player has learned some basics, getting a viable metal industry from imported goblinite and trade is quite viable (MASTERWORK FOOD IS GROSSLY OVERVALUED IN TRADE). 

Not having the initial metal to begin is most painful for a new player.  I enjoy having a nice steel industry, but thats just because I like making stuff.  Once you learn to clobber sieges, you begin to appreciate the vast quantities of metal the goblins are importing.

 I'm considering building an entire tower out of imported goblinite copper, but I might turn it into brass first...

You know, I haven't had any luck with Goblinite on this embark either. Not a single thief or errant ambusher! Apparently some dirty Kobold nicked my Copper Battle Axe I embarked with ages ago, but other than that, not a sausage.

Since the fort is going on 3 years old now, it seems more than a little bizarre. I'm in an "untamed wilderness" segment IIRC, with giant sparrows everywhere, but no Goblins whatsoever.

I've resolved in the meanwhile to pump out shoddy Zinc cages (kind of like a giant, unusually macabre souvenir shop) and trade them for anything containing any remotely useful metal.

I think perhaps the hunk of rock I've embarked on is simply known by all and sundry for being a barren lump of Mosquitoman turd and so even raiding parties avoid it :\

(I must also note with a sense of embarrassment that I've never survived long enough to actually be sieged by Goblins, and hence have never had a plentiful Goblinite deposit. The little buggers always seem to show up with ambushes and bleed me dry when all my idiot Dwarves run outside and get killed - full sieges aren't necessary )

[thiosk]

Well, just keep smoothing and engraving those halls, and get to cooking some agricultural surplus, and you can pick up most of the iron you'll need from the caravans.

I reccomend putting those zinc cages in some traps, because when that siege does come (and it will, probably at the least expected moment), your military won't be able to hang.

[StubbornAlcoholic]

Well, just keep smoothing and engraving those halls, and get to cooking some agricultural surplus, and you can pick up most of the iron you'll need from the caravans.

I reccomend putting those zinc cages in some traps, because when that siege does come (and it will, probably at the least expected moment), your military won't be able to hang.

Recommendation noted and acted upon

My Goblinite collectors have been dispatched along all major entrances to the fortress. Would you recommend any particular remedy for the problem of ambushes? I find the little gits have a tendency to skulk around in the hills and whack my unfortunate hunters rather than blundering into my "smelters" as planned.

[Cozmopolit]

Would you recommend any particular remedy for the problem of ambushes?

Well, hunting is dangerous. Try to cagetrap some animals, train/tame and use underground herds as meat supply. I currently just use dogs because they have multiple uses.

I get pissed about every dwarf that tries to leave the actual fortress, but then again my games don't include much fun ...

[Sutremaine]

1. Train your hunters to the point where they can take on an ambush by themselves. This will take time if you don't use a danger room or similar, you'll lose the hunter while training is going on, and you'll need a copper crossbow and a lot of hammer skill to brain a goblin with even a copper crossbow. I believe that dwarves with two weapons will almost never use the lower one on the list (certainly with the order spear -> crossbow they won't shoot from afar and then use the spears up close), but one good stab with a spear is enough to interrupt pagefuls of ineffectual bashing. Shield bashing makes a better blunt attack, and shields are good for defence anyway. Number of items is not a problem here. I've seen a dwarf haul an item while holding a crutch, crossbow, dagger, and shield in her remaining good hand.

2. Stop using hunters. Breed dogs or pigs or sheep, and in the meantime buy large animals from the caravan for immediate slaughter.

[muzzz]

What they said.

But if you really want those hunters out there, assign some dogs (preferably war-trained) and hope they can buy enough time for your military to come to the rescue.

[Sutremaine]

But don't do training and assignation together. You don't want your uber-hunters getting depressed about their dogs dying and taking it out on everyone else.

[StubbornAlcoholic]

Thanks for the tips guys! Much appreciated

I don't so much mind hunters and the like being killed, unfortunately I find ambushes just seem to trigger all my Dwarves running out of the fort and getting mass-slaughtered. With regards to military, I really haven't had much luck so far with soldiers. Basically I get them sparring a lot, but they seem to train so slowly...and die so quickly by comparison!

I just lost my only military teacher too (to an unarmed Goblin!), so I doubt I can really get myself a viable counter to surface threats. I'm hesitant to use "Danger Rooms" because it feels sort of exploit-y, silly as it sounds.

I don't really understand why training is so ludicrously slow though. In 3 years solid I've so far managed to train 3 low-level Axedwarves, one of which is now dead from a punch in the face (my fault for not giving him a helm, but I do lack materials for that).

I sort of wish Goblin squads were sometimes rookies too - it always seems to be a freaking Mace Lord that just swaggers onto the map, pimp-hat posed at a jaunty angle, brutally skull-implodes all my squaddies and then leaves again.

[Sutremaine]

Bone is a helm material, as is leather (and shell, but that's rare). Not a very good one, but better than nothing.

If your dwarves are streaming out after someone dies, you need to set the forbid orders (o, F) to auto-forbid death items. Changes here are not applied retroactively. Training is pretty quick if you start with the right dwarves. My usual setup is Teacher 2 / Student 3 on three dwarves, and then Armour 5 / Dodge 5 / Shield 5 shared between them. Usually I get them training at the start of mid-spring, but this time they spent a season mining before taking the picks to swing at each other. I also sent them out to fight animals, but since quite a few of them were flying I think I ended up losing more XP to standing around than I gained from the live training. Once they caught up to the animals it was all over pretty quickly, although one of them did almost get gutted by a giant mantis (all leather armour with bone gauntlets. Works right up until you get hit).

Anyway, by the end of the first year they'd picked up 13, 16, and 17 levels from training, plus two levels of mining/weapon skill from Spring, and had started sharing the non-Dodging skills around.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Kol is nearly a Novice Shield User.

For the first couple of years you do need to do battlefield control. The easiest way of doing this is to have an entrance with changes of direction and level (or doors, if it isn't supposed to have wagon access), so that your squad doesn't get strung out because one of them saw a goblin squad down the corridor and ran off before the rest of the dwarves were ready to move. If you ever get down to one skilled dwarf, plan your defences like you don't have any at all and give that one dwarf a single training partner. You don't want to be put back to embark-year skill levels when the ambushes have already begun.

To get enemies to a controllable battlefield you can wait for them to come to you. Limiting wagon spawn points to a couple of tiles will mean you have to defend only those few tiles, but you still have to play escort to liaisons and diplomats. By the time human diplomats start arriving you should have enough dwarfpower to play escort to that lone dumbass.

[kardwill]

I don't so much mind hunters and the like being killed, unfortunately I find ambushes just seem to trigger all my Dwarves running out of the fort and getting mass-slaughtered.

In addition of what Sutremaine said about the 'forbid order option', do you use emergency burrows? Those are easy to set up, and  necessary if you want to survive the ambushes. Literally lifesavers. Design a safe underground burrow in your fortress, link it to a civilian alert, and at the first sight of gobbos, activate the alert. You'll lose a few hunters/fishers/loggers that were too close to the ambush, but most of your civvies should make it safely inside the fort, and stay indoors long enough to allow you to close the access points.

[muzzz]

But don't do training and assignation together. You don't want your uber-hunters getting depressed about their dogs dying and taking it out on everyone else.

While I haven't tested this extensively, I've always had the impression that unassigned war dogs tend to follow their trainer. You might be able to use that to circumvent the bad thought from losing an assigned dog.

[Nuoya]

I suggest you spice things up by trying to get all of your iron and steel from external resources. Goblins are an obvious one but you can actually get the caravans to bring tons of meltables if you ask for it. Ask for bars of course, but you can also specifically ask for iron crafts and steel crafts. Ask for anvils too. Finally there's a bunch of misc. items like toys, tools, minecarts, weapons, armor that have a chance of being made out of iron or steel. Then to challenge yourself, try to buy everything from profits from an interesting industry. Anyone can make a few metric tons of diorite stone crafts to buy a caravan. Try doing something like glass or silk clothing or mechanisms