Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[urmane]

Is there a one-off bug in manufacturing goods?  I notice it all the time when making limited quantities of items via the manager menu - usually early, when, for instance, I try to build the "Construct bed <7> has been completed." and it results in only six beds available.  It's not everything, just sometimes, and I've waited in case it's not available when in transit or something similar ... thoughts?

[black47]

What's usually the problem for me, is that the last "bed" (or any item created) is still in the process of being hauled to a stockpile, and thus unavailable for using in buildings.

The solution: wait something like 30 seconds and then try to use the item.

[Quietust]

I've waited in case it's not available when in transit or something similar

Wait longer - it was probably tasked for hauling the instant it was produced, and even though your hauler hasn't picked it up yet, the mere fact that he is on his way to pick it up makes it unavailable for building.

[knutor]

Ha!  I have a problem of choosing Ash for Pearash, and then being forced to stick a number down there.  Can't cancel it, til ya set a number, then we can remove it from the manage list.  I have no thoughts on the actual question, other than I made one too many Steel Anvils, and had to smelt one.  Prolly a human math error, but it could have been impatience, on my part. Its just so hard to tell, when a Melt Object will complete.  I kinda wish a separate workstation existed for item reconstitution.

On the subject of DF math.  Incidently, I'm a little shocked that it takes three whole bars of gold to make one Floor Grate.  Isn't that losing value?  Does it take three rock chunks or one chunk?  I hope Toady realizes this and allows us someday to make rock bars, or something to balance the imbalance in masonry type items.

[AndreaReina]

On the subject of DF math.  Incidently, I'm a little shocked that it takes three whole bars of gold to make one Floor Grate.  Isn't that losing value?  Does it take three rock chunks or one chunk?  I hope Toady realizes this and allows us someday to make rock bars, or something to balance the imbalance in masonry type items.

Floor grates take one rock. One gold ore yields four bars of metal, only three of which are needed to make the grate, leaving one bar as surplus. Where's the disadvantage?

[muzzz]

Also, a single stone can now be turned into four rock blocks. Which, aside from the MOAR!-factor, are also considerably lighter.

[knutor]

On the subject of DF math.  Floor Grate.  Isn't that losing value?

Floor grates take one rock. One gold ore yields four bars of metal, only three of which are needed to make the grate, leaving one bar as surplus. Where's the disadvantage?

3 gold bars vs 1 gold grate.  Three gold bars should be more valuable than one grate. 

I have no more gold bars to see a value of in this fortress, I'll try and find some in old forts, for price comparisons.  Of course this stands to be warped by ☼Item Quality☼. 

I'd prefer metal Grates and metal Hatches take 1 metal bar and 1 stone block. 

To be tipped and plated, as opposed to being solid gold.  The last fortress I had had a bazillion gold veins in it.  After a few years I was overwhelmed by the insanely off balance value of the solid gold doors, hatches and grates. 

I had no other metal and rock was running low.  Almost all my walls and bridges were block based, not chunk based.  I dunno what I did wrong.  But the sieges were coming in with flying mounts, very early.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Why should raw materials be worth more than the finished product?

[knutor]

Portability.

[NedeN]

Portability.

That doesnt sound very right... If you take a decent tex-mex restaurant, for example. Lets say one restaurant buys their pico de gayo, while the other makes it from scratch (onions, jalapenos, tomatoes, cilantro). Even with the labor to make this product, it still comes out cheaper than buying everything made, and for some food already portioned out for you.

[AutomataKittay]

I rarely uses metal outside of mechanisms, so I had to look up how many metal some things uses here http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/Melting

The value for most of those are 10 before quality multiplier from here http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2012:Item_value

So, most of them takes more in base value than it puts out, considering bars are 5x. However even slight higher than base quality put it over the input value, it's still odd to me. It's still better tradeoff with ore making four bars, since you can use three to make four furnishings compared to 3 if you used the ore itself, and recycle anything lower quality while you'd have to sell or smash the ore furnishings.

Also to whomever said that raw materials should have more worth than finished product, it pretty much is, outside of quality modifier, for metal things in DF. It also make no sense, since finished products are more valuable because of craftmanship or utility! Or really as much worth as input used to make it, unless you're doing it at loss.

Raw materials are also much bulkier and heavier, as in example of various ores and raw coal, and you'd need tools to work it into something usable and so on. In DF example, you need to bring an anvil, a stone or two for fire safe material, and willing to wait and use someone, if you want to start up from raw material.

[Azated]

Let's say you've just mined out a vein of raw gold. At the moment, it's just a block of impure, unrefined shiny metal that you can't do anything with except drop on someones head. If you tried to hammer it into a piece of jewelry, it'd shatter into a million pieces. It's worth zilch in its current state.

Now, let's say you refined the raw chunk of gold, melted it down and poured it into a necklace mold. Suddenly, it becomes a highly sought after piece of craftsmanship. If you were going to sell it, you'd want to make a profit. Let's take a rough guess at what you'd need to factor in for that, assuming you do everything yourself from scratch.
 

One block of ore produces 3 necklaces in this example.

Time spent making mining equipment: 2 days
Time spent mining: 24 hours
Time spent hauling the ore to a furnace: 2 hours
Time spent building said furnace, including tools: 2 weeks
Time spent refining and melting ore: 3 hours
Time spent pouring the mold and waiting for each necklace to set: 2 hours
Time spent carrying the necklaces to a market: 1 hour

So, in total, that's 2 weeks, 3 days and 8 hours spent crafting 3 necklaces. That means each necklace costs about 139 hours of labor. You'd want a profit for all your hard work spent, so you'll sell it for far more than it took you to craft it. A 50% profit for each necklace at 209 hours worth of labor sounds good.


It took you 3 days to mine the ore. It took a further 2 weeks and 8 hours to obtain a completed necklace. Do you see why that finished product is worth more than its raw materials?

[knutor]

But what if all the bearded ladies in the fortess prefered rings as opposed to necklaces, or vice versa.  There would be additional time to smelt, and smelt some more. 

The hidden value of gold, is in commerce, not in artisan-ship.  In coins, and in bars.  At present, I just do not see DF portraying its value correctly in a worldwide economy.  I know for certain it can in large portions, cause crazy FUN, come at early stages of game play. 

It is a standard for which other objects are valued.  DF however, values items as it sees fit, not dynamically, based on world-wide quantities.  Isn't earth only made up of one square football field of gold bars? Gold is incredibly dense and limited in supplies, usually. 

@Azated, In a real sense your calculations are correct.  But I am correct, too.  Gold backs our everyday coinage, and our everyday job output.  To use it up in craftsmanship is a HUGE loss to its market potential.

In DF, there is no complex calculations for market trends.  Is there?  That gold heavy region I had, at first had me all happy and giggly, but I just couldn't make enough of the stuff to keep abreast of the FUN tide that kept trying to take it by force. 

To get actual military metals and defenses up and running, while maintaining its devalued, chunk state, or even bar state, was a considerable hindrance.  That is why I believe gold bars are over valued, and needed far less in utilitarian recipes. 

When coins are crafted with the stuff, the output should be dynamic, not fixed.  Here is where the economy should way in the most heaviest.  Just my .02, worth.  Sincerely, Knutor

[AutomataKittay]

Gold isn't the only way to value things, different culture used different material for currency base, a few even went with iron rods (I particularly remember some time periods of Sparta and some African civilizations ). Most modern currency system's not actually backed by anything but government support ( USA stopped backing their dollars with gold sometimes back in 1930's to 1970's, I forget exactly when ).

So, what hidden value? Gold's still more valuable in crafted material even in modern time. Or just sprinkled in some high value booze to price it up more.

Though yes, DF don't models demand in trading and use in any way that's linked to actual world or neighbor economy, I expect that to be dealt with eventually.

[muzzz]

I've been googling a bit, and couldn't find any monetary systems that still use a gold standard. It does still appear to be considered a fairly safe asset, though.

To get actual military metals and defenses up and running, while maintaining its devalued, chunk state, or even bar state, was a considerable hindrance.  That is why I believe gold bars are over valued, and needed far less in utilitarian recipes.

I'm not sure I understand what the problem is. DF has different materials that serve different purposes. Gold's purpose is to be very highly valued. If that's not what you're looking for, use something else.