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[GlyphGryph]

From what I understand, the damage from PTSD is in the behavioural response to the memory, not the memory itself, so that one seems a pretty clear-cut "no". Generally, it's accepted that your actions can "dirty" or "stain" the soul, but not damage it - hence confession, and all those stories of "redeeming your soul", it can always be "cleansed".

I don't know about the second half.

[Bohandas]

One argument which I've seen cropping up a lot lately in my internet-travels is Atheists vs Christians arguing about the moral character of the Christian God, specifically regarding the whole 'if God is all powerful and benevolent, why is there evil?' thing.

I recently realized the answer to this dilemma. In the Christian belief system God is considered the ultimate arbiter of what is good and what is evil, and as a result his conduct, entirely regardless of what that conduct may be, is arbitrarily defined as 100% good. Much like a corrupt despot who places themself above the laws of their nation.

[kaijyuu]

One argument which I've seen cropping up a lot lately in my internet-travels is Atheists vs Christians arguing about the moral character of the Christian God, specifically regarding the whole 'if God is all powerful and benevolent, why is there evil?' thing.

I recently realized the answer to this dilemma. In the Christian belief system God is considered the ultimate arbiter of what is good and what is evil, and as a result his conduct, entirely regardless of what that conduct may be, is arbitrarily defined as 100% good. Much like a despot who places themself above the laws of their nation.

Yuppers, this is the general justification. If he's not "omnibenevolent" in your eyes, then your view of morality is Wrong (tm).

Though to be honest, if there's an objective morality, God's pretty much the best choice for an authority on the subject.

[Telgin]

Although that does make one wonder why God would create us with a different natural inclination to morality than His own.  If you do subscribe to the idea that He's not the nicest guy around then that has unfortunate implications.  Setting us up to fail, basically.

[Leafsnail]

The fact that one can resort to "God is right because God is right and if you disagree too bad God is right" is the reason I can't really engage in theological arguments.  An unfalsifiable hypothesis is one thing, but an unfalsifiable hypothesis set up in such a way that you can't explain or understand it at all is a whole new level of useless.

[Bohandas]

On the subject of evil:

I still haven't gotten around to reading the Bible, so feel free to correct me, but I really don't see why God would view the evils of the world in the same way the people on the world would. From the perspective of an all-powerful deity, I'd go so far as to say that the most horrific and terrible acts committed on Earth look like little more than petty fights and feuds between children. I mean, if you know full well that a person's soul is just going to pop up next to you in the afterlife once their worldly existence comes to an end, I highly doubt their death would be as tragic to you as it would be to the ones still inhabiting the planet.

...yes, the "problem of evil" is very easy to resolve. Humans write horror stories, for example, turn them into horror movies, act in those movies, and watch them. Some people enjoy them. And yet I don't see any actors or movie-goers accusing writers or audiences of being "evil" for allowing these stories to exist. If you're an omniscient, omnipotent being who creates universes...it doesn't seem like such a stretch to think that you might make the occasional horror story among those universes. From the perspective of the character in a horror story, it probably seems pretty horrible. And a person who is raped/tortured/murdered/etc probably sees it as horrible too. But as you say...if they merely pop out after death with all their memories intact, able to resume their existence as a spirit apart from the flesh...that doesn't seem all that different from an actor who plays a role, then moves on.

But from what I gather, this sort of perspective doesn't easily fit within a conventional "Christian" religious/world view.

The problem is that according to the dogmas of most forms of Christianity, God is not merely benevolent, but Infinitely Benevolent. The situation you describe would fulfill simple net benevolence, but Omnibenevolence requires much much more.

[Nadaka]

One argument which I've seen cropping up a lot lately in my internet-travels is Atheists vs Christians arguing about the moral character of the Christian God, specifically regarding the whole 'if God is all powerful and benevolent, why is there evil?' thing.

I recently realized the answer to this dilemma. In the Christian belief system God is considered the ultimate arbiter of what is good and what is evil, and as a result his conduct, entirely regardless of what that conduct may be, is arbitrarily defined as 100% good. Much like a despot who places themself above the laws of their nation.

Yuppers, this is the general justification. If he's not "omnibenevolent" in your eyes, then your view of morality is Wrong (tm).

Though to be honest, if there's an objective morality, God's pretty much the best choice for an authority on the subject.

...

I wrote a very long response to this, and then deleted it. It was offensive, grotesque, personal and true.

Suffice it to say that what you describe was the morality of my fathers church. I used to pray for the world to burn and wipe away the suffering that mankind was burdened to endure.

Once the burden inflicted upon me by my fathers and my own faith was removed, I realized that the world was composed of something other than pain and dread after all.

[kaijyuu]

PM the original to me if you like.

And yeah, I can't really stand it when people say the world is full of evil. It's full of wonderful, horrible, good, and bad. And as a whole, I'd say we're moving forward.

[EnigmaticHat]

So, read through the thread, and I think its an appropriate place for me to ask a question of my own.

Do most Christians believe the bible/their priest's interpretation of the bible is what god actually thinks/wants to tell them?  I ask because I know that some changes in Christian belief came about through human actions.  Hell was "burrowed" from Norse Hel, and then defined by Dante, and somewhere along the way combined with the lake of fire the devil was thrown into and changed from his prison to a realm that he rules.  Protestantism (or at least portions of it) was started by priests criticizing the corrupt Catholic clergy of the time, and at least some of those priests didn't claim to be getting messages directly from god.  On top of that, it doesn't make sense to accept that the Pope is directly speaking for god when he changes what's in the bible and how the bible is interpreted, given that Popes have said and done some things that very clearly go against the bible and core tenets of Christianity (indulgences, promising heaven in exchange for going on a Crusade, covering up priest molesters and, of course, talking about hell, see above).

Yeah, I'm a bit cynical about Christianity, but maybe someone here has a good answer?  We seem to have at least one articulate Christian floating around here.

[LordBucket]

The problem is that according to the dogmas of most forms of Christianity, God is not merely benevolent, but Infinitely Benevolent. The situation you describe would fulfill simple net benevolence, but Omnibenevolence requires much much more.

Well, I did say that the scenario being described didn't neatly fit within the Christian perspective. And there are valid ways of reconciling omnibenevolence too, bu they also won't neatly fit into the typical Christian perspective. For example, what if we expand the analogy to include the concept of reincarnation?

If so...then any conceivable earthly horror can be easily reconciled with divine omnibenevolence. If you're an immortal spirit consciousness going through incarnation after incarnation...it's not such a stretch to suggest that at some point you might simply get bored of lifetimes filled exclusively with butterflies and bunny rabbits. Humans sometimes like to watch action movies, horror movies, etc. You go in, you get an adrenaline rush for an hour or two, you leave and go back to whatever you were doing.

If you're immortal, eternal consciousness...is it really that difficult to imagine being willing to do a quick 30 year lifetime when maybe you get raped and murdered? Then you're done and you go do something else. No big deal.

Ever gone to a movie without watching the previews? If you're an immortal, eternal soul who's experienced dozens or hundreds of lifetimes...how closely do you think you read the fine print in advance of every lifetime? Is it such a stretch to imagine that you might try incarnating into a body with a "surprise me" lifetime attached?

Divine benevolence is totally not at issue here. It would be no more "benevolent" for God to step in and stop souls from doing this kind of thing because they might have an unpleasant experience than it would be for someone to ban horror movies and stop you from seeing them because you might get scared while watching them.

It's just a question of perspective. Many things change once you make the conceptual shift from "I am a human and this is my life" to "I am an eternal conscious spirit being having a very brief visit here on Earth."


Anyway, if you want to answer questions like these from a "traditional Christian perspective" I think you pretty much have to fall back to answers like "Just have faith. It all makes sense, and God is perfect so no mistakes will be made. Maybe it doesn't make sense to us as humans, but it doesn't need to and we don't need to understand. All we need to do is have faith in Jesus."

Some people are happy with answer like that.

It's not my intent to be disparaging, but my impression of Christianity is that it's basically an imprecise religion. It's like a crayon drawing without a lot of detail. You can see the general picture, but the finer resolution just isn't there. Some questions about "what Christianity's dogma is about X" can't really be answered because it doesn't address X.

It might sound "weak" for a Christian to give an answer like the one I suggested above: "don't worry about it, just have faith in Jesus." But that doesn't necessarily make the answer invalid. If I ask you divide 5 by 3, "1 remainder 2" is a valid answer. Christianity seems kind of like that to me. It doesn't really say what to do with the remainder.

[LordBucket]

I'm a bit cynical about Christianity, but maybe someone here has a good answer?

...I'm not entirely sure what your question is, but I think one possible answer that the "average Christian" might give would be to simply dispute your facts. For example:

Hell was "burrowed" from Norse Hel

The (english) Bible mentions hell.

Matthew 10:28
"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

Mrak 9:43
"And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:"

The Bible is their source material. They know this, they believe this. Your assertions about Norse mythology are irrelevant.

then defined by Dante

Dante wasn't even born until the 14th century. The Bible is over a thousand years older than that. The Bible mentions hell, the lake of fire, etc. What does Dante have to do with anything?

somewhere along the way combined with the lake of fire

...again, the "lake of fire" is mentioned directly in the Bible a number of times. For example:

Revelations 20:10
"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

I'm not sure what your question is. You appear to be making claims about other sources and religions that aren't Christianity and attempting to apply them to Christianity. That doesn't really work. From the Christian perspective, Jesus Christ is Lord and the Bible is the Word of God. That is the basic "fact" from which other discussions may proceed.

If other religions or traditions have grains of truth, that doesn't bring into question the legitimacy of the Bible. Norse mythology describing Hell too doesn't make the fact that Hell is described in the Bible somehow less valid.

and somewhere along the way combined with the lake of fire the devil was thrown
into and changed from his prison to a realm that he rules.

...it's possible you might be misunderstanding this. Hell and the lake of fire are different places. The above quotes should clarify that.

that Popes have said and done some things that very clearly go against the bible and core tenets of Christianity (indulgences,
 promising heaven in exchange for going on a Crusade, covering up priest molesters and, of course, talking about hell, see above).

I'm less familiar with Catholicism, but this is very easy to answer from the Protestant perspective. Protestants don't recognize the Pope. What he does is irrrelevant. Though some would actually go so far as to suggest that the "last pope" might be the antichrist, because of some references in Revelations that appear to describe Italy and the Roman Catholic church. For example, here's a website that goes into some detail. Google will find you plenty of others.

[Bohandas]

Hell was "burrowed" from Norse Hel, and then defined by Dante, and somewhere along the way combined with the lake of fire the devil was thrown into and changed from his prison to a realm that he rules.

The (english) Bible mentions hell.

Matthew 10:28
"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

Mrak 9:43
"And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:"

The Bible is their source material. They know this, they believe this. Your assertions about Norse mythology are irrelevant.

In EnigmaticHat's defense we did get the word "Hell" from the Norse.

[Rolan7]

I would have absolutely no problem living with Christians.  They tend to be decent folks.  The problem is that they nurture a terrible subset, the "moral majority".  I object to Christianity because it objects to my sexuality.  Christians themselves almost never mean me harm, but they give power to the political group who DOES.

That's my take as an evenly bisexual agnostic.  The moral majority restricts my rights so I'm wary of the well-meaning, spiritual, let's-all-get-along-Christians.  I feel threatened by Christianity as a whole because, as a whole, it is forcing laws that restrict my rights.  I live in NC, which recently passed Amendment One.  I don't hate Christians.  I don't want to think that most of them hate me.  But Amendment One was passed... I don't know what to think anymore.

[LordBucket]

In EnigmaticHat's defense we did get the word "Hell" from the Norse.

Ok, but that's not particularly relevant. The bible was not originally written in english. The original hebrew word in this case was Sheol. That the english word that was chosen during translation happens to come from Norse mythology isn't a valid argument against Christianity or the bible.

This is a translation issue, not a consistency issue.

It would be totally reasonable for a Christian to point out that most of our knowledge of Norse mythology comes from oral traditions that weren't even committed to paper until the 11th century. It doesn't make sense to claim that the Bible plagiarized material from them, when it had been written a thousand years earlier.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

That's my take as an evenly bisexual agnostic.  I am so affronted by the political Christians that I am wary of the "weak", spiritual, let's-all-get-along-Christians.  I feel threatened by Christianity as a whole because, as a whole, it is forcing laws that restrict my rights.  I live in NC, which recently passed Amendment One.  I don't hate Christians.  I don't want to think that most of them hate me.  But Amendment One was passed... I don't know what to think anymore.

On this: Amendment One really shouldn't have passed, but the Christians campaigned long and hard to the rural churches and got them out in force. Pretty much all the urban counties rejected Amendment One. Wake in particular rejected it by a large margin.

It doesn't matter though. Soon enough a federal recognition of same-sex marriage will happen and the state amendments will be irrelevant. Eventually they will be shamefully repealed in the same way the anti-miscegenation amendments were all repealed.

Don't doubt that the Religious Right hates you. They hate all people who do not conform to their view of the world. The Religious Left is another matter, but bigotry still comes from them on occasion.

In EnigmaticHat's defense we did get the word "Hell" from the Norse.

Ok, but that's not particularly relevant. The bible was not originally written in english. The original hebrew word in this case was Sheol. That the english word that was chosen during translation happens to come from Norse mythology isn't a valid argument against Christianity or the bible.

Except for the part where that isn't what Sheol means even remotely.

She'ol (play /ˈʃiːoʊl/ SHEE-ohl or /ˈʃiːəl/ SHEE-əl; Hebrew שְׁאוֹל Šʾôl), translated as "grave", "pit", or "abode of the dead", is the Old Testament/Hebrew Bible's underworld, a place of darkness to which all the dead go, both the righteous and the unrighteous, regardless of the moral choices made in life, a place of stillness and darkness cut off from God.[1]

In the Christian Mythos, Hell is a place of torment for the unrighteous. Sheol is from the Jewish Mythos, and is not a place of torment. It is a place where everyone goes when they die. It is not even a place of judgement. It is akin to a mass spiritual "waiting room" for everyone who is dead until the Messiah arrives, after which Yahweh will begin the judgement of souls.