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Author Topic: Room Values - !!SCIENCE!!  (Read 45446 times)

Kipi

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Re: Room Values - !!SCIENCE!!
« Reply #15 on: November 12, 2012, 04:00:43 pm »

And some general rules I have discovered:
  • The value of furniture used to create the room doesn't affect GR.
Is GR a new term?  I didn't see it listed.


Yes, it is. It stands for "Gap Reduction" and it means how much more valuable the room must be to reach the next quality level. For example, Modest room requires the room value to be 100. If there is a gap in wall then the required is 100 + GR, and for Modest room GR is 15. This means the room requires the overall value of 115 to change quality.

It's not listed yet in the first post since I want to have a bit more concrete data to add first. If certain term is not listed in the first post then you should be able to find the explanation in the blog. Of course, you can also just ask here.
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Room Values - !!SCIENCE!!

Quote from: zanchito
You know, they could teach maths like this at school. "There are 105 dwarves in a settlement. A goblin invasion appears and 67 die. Then a migrant wave..."

Kipi

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Re: Room Values - !!SCIENCE!!
« Reply #16 on: November 14, 2012, 02:27:59 am »

I updated the first post and included all the details I have been able to confirm so far. No actual new information is present, yesterday was spent mostly on confirming the general rules I posted earlier regarding the GR and one piece of furniture.

I will start working on the multiple piece of furniture next. Hopefully I have something concrete to publish later today or tomorrow morning...
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Room Values - !!SCIENCE!!

Quote from: zanchito
You know, they could teach maths like this at school. "There are 105 dwarves in a settlement. A goblin invasion appears and 67 die. Then a migrant wave..."

Ruhn

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Re: Room Values - !!SCIENCE!!
« Reply #17 on: November 14, 2012, 12:57:02 pm »

It's not listed yet in the first post since I want to have a bit more concrete data to add first. If certain term is not listed in the first post then you should be able to find the explanation in the blog. Of course, you can also just ask here.
Sorry, I can't get into blogs from work.  I will have to check it out from home sometime.

Kipi

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Re: Room Values - !!SCIENCE!!
« Reply #18 on: November 16, 2012, 03:46:41 am »

A quick update of the process.

So far I have been able to figure out more or less exact values for GR of one tile as well as the effect of additional furniture in GR. Maximum values for GR were already mentioned earlier, what I have been able to determine is that the minimum GR I was able to confirm for each quality level is 5. Interesting thing is that the value of additional furniture for that GR is always calculated by formula QR-30, where QR is the value requirement of the given room quality (100 for Modest, 250 for Normal, 500 for Decent and so on).

The decrease of GR is also a bit over 1 point per 10 furniture value. Unfortunately I haven't been able to determine the exact relation but it's somewhere about 1.3 per 10 furniture value. I have also been able to confirm more or less accurately the assumption that the material and quality of the extra furniture doesn't affect the result, only the pure total value.
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Room Values - !!SCIENCE!!

Quote from: zanchito
You know, they could teach maths like this at school. "There are 105 dwarves in a settlement. A goblin invasion appears and 67 die. Then a migrant wave..."

Kipi

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Re: Room Values - !!SCIENCE!!
« Reply #19 on: January 20, 2013, 03:53:49 pm »

It has been over two months since I updated this project. In fact, it has been more or less exactly two months since I touched DF last time.

A lot has happened in last two months, things that are far too personal to share up here. Lets just say that I have had no time nor interest in DF (or gaming in general) lately.

Hopefully I can finally find time and interest to continue this project again in soon. I have already started my first fortress since 20th of November, though I would like to refresh my skills and knowledge a bit before I jump back to this project again. After all, this project is a enormous, much bigger than I ever thought it would be.

My plans (and hopes) are that I continue this in few weeks, depending on my real life situation and the state of the next release of DF. But, since I don't want anybody thinking that this is another announcement with no real content, I decided to publish the first version of the study in PDF format. The file can be downloaded from DFFD.

Please note that the version I uploaded hasn't been polished in any way. It may, and most probably is, very confusing at times, with lots of references that may or may not exist since I have written and edited in as I progressed in the research. It may also contain information that hasn't been mentioned in this thread, especially the discoveries I made between 16th and 20th of November. Honestly, I didn't reread the research before I made the PDF, though I will update the first post of this thread for the information I have discovered but haven't included here yet.

Also, if any of you have some hard data relating to this, I'm more than happy to accept those. Just post them here or send me a PM and I will test those theories when I have a chance. That may take few weeks though, depending on when I'm ready to continue this research again.

Oh, and by the way, the file currently holds about 40 pages and is almost 1 MB in size (about 873 KB right now). And it's almost completely made from text and tables!

But yeah, I hope I'm able to continue this in few weeks.
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Room Values - !!SCIENCE!!

Quote from: zanchito
You know, they could teach maths like this at school. "There are 105 dwarves in a settlement. A goblin invasion appears and 67 die. Then a migrant wave..."

Kipi

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Re: Room Values - !!SCIENCE!!
« Reply #20 on: July 09, 2014, 03:02:26 am »

Alright, time to resurrect this monster!

*Cast Rise Dead*

So, now that I'm back I do plan to continue this project with the new version. Though I'm going to wait a bit so that Toady can release at least one or two patches.

But consider this project active again!
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Room Values - !!SCIENCE!!

Quote from: zanchito
You know, they could teach maths like this at school. "There are 105 dwarves in a settlement. A goblin invasion appears and 67 die. Then a migrant wave..."

clinodev

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Re: Room Values - !!SCIENCE!!
« Reply #21 on: July 23, 2014, 04:35:51 pm »

Yeah! Came here hoping to see your first take on mining making floor tiles match the base stone level rather than the wall it's mined out of. This seems to be the most talked about relevant change so far.
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Kipi

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Re: Room Values - !!SCIENCE!!
« Reply #22 on: July 24, 2014, 01:16:36 am »

Do we even know if it's a bug or feature?

Of course, if it's a feature then it does make things a lot more easier to figure out other things.

My plans are to have all the world gen parameters and raws edited by the end of this week so that I can start experimenting in next week. I will probably start the science from scratch, though the early stages would be more about confirming whether the older discoveries still hold true or not.
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Room Values - !!SCIENCE!!

Quote from: zanchito
You know, they could teach maths like this at school. "There are 105 dwarves in a settlement. A goblin invasion appears and 67 die. Then a migrant wave..."

clinodev

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Re: Room Values - !!SCIENCE!!
« Reply #23 on: July 25, 2014, 03:27:38 pm »

As far as I know it's still all in flux, with the normal "that sucks"/"that rocks" opinion ratio.

If you could lay out a few hours worth of experiments that need done, homework style, I'd be happy to contribute some time once dfhack is in.
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Fleeting Frames

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Re: Room Values - !!SCIENCE!!
« Reply #24 on: March 20, 2020, 03:51:36 pm »

So I decided to look at this topic, and there's few things I've noticed:

1. The thing about engraved walls using A's MV in case of wall tile counts of A>B>C no longer (44.09) seems as true.

Spoiler: no upvalue test (click to show/hide)



2. I decided to also look at GR.

Hypothesis: The value reduction is GR0*number of quarters.

For this test I decided to use meager vs modest room with ≡bed≡ and 5x5 /7x7 with walls room.

Spoiler: baseline test (click to show/hide)




Conclusion:

%gap\GR% of target value   exact for Modest
0-1 sides dug   14,285%      15
1-2 sides dug   33,33%      34
2+ to all         100%         100

Somewhere between above 33 and below 34

Further research?

Confirmation of GR for 1-2 sides being exactly 33%
Confirmation of extra furniture value reducing target value by just as much for larger gaps.

Bottomline

All of this is somewhat pointless, as demonstrated below:

||

All qualities are excellent. One has native gold mechanism built as gear assembly, other has attached it to support. One is grand, other is royal.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2020, 04:52:44 pm by Fleeting Frames »
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Sarmatian123

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Re: Room Values - !!SCIENCE!!
« Reply #25 on: March 21, 2020, 07:23:16 am »

Last version 0.47.04 has new values for all rooms and locations. Roughly 2x more expensive rooms have to be, but not always.
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delphonso

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Re: Room Values - !!SCIENCE!!
« Reply #26 on: March 21, 2020, 07:28:11 am »

This is also easier to test by looking at guildhall/temple values.

Sarmatian123

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Re: Room Values - !!SCIENCE!!
« Reply #27 on: March 21, 2020, 08:03:21 am »

This is also easier to test by looking at guildhall/temple values.

It would seem so. 2x seems to be the multiplication factor for most room values.
However I noticed 3500 worth instead of 2500 worth is already enough for grand bedroom, which is good enough for a duke.
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Fleeting Frames

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Re: Room Values - !!SCIENCE!!
« Reply #28 on: March 21, 2020, 09:44:09 am »

I specifically didn't use 47 guildhalls due wanting to measure gaps. Looking at same tests in .4704 *interrupted by pack of giant alligators* and using a -fungiwood bed-, this is Meager:

||

Calced total value 99, craft guildhall value 79 (99 if bed is freed from being a room).

To test that GR matches previous values, I'd need to smooth 4 walls with 1-6 wall tiles dug.

Smoothing 1 wall:

||

It's modest quarters. Guildhall value went up by 4, as expected.

Digging out 1 wall to the center of south drops it back to meager, just as expected. Guildhall value remains at 83; (therefore guildhalls take no gap reduction penalty - that was pretty obvious from the get-go, and also means you can't use them to test gap reduction penalty).

After smoothing fourth wall, the value goes back up to Modest:

||

Exactly as expected.

Digging out the entire south side results in drop back to Meager (as expected):

||

That's additional 19 reduction, so should be offset by 4 smoothed walls and 1 floor tile:

||

It is modest again. Oh, and guildhall value: 114; 134 when bed is freed (exactly as expected).

Instead of testing further, can you provide shot of your room that uses 3500 instead of 2500? That value would more or less sync with second stage of gap reduction.

Sarmatian123

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Re: Room Values - !!SCIENCE!!
« Reply #29 on: March 21, 2020, 09:52:10 am »

Instead of testing further, can you provide shot of your room that uses 3500 instead of 2500? That value would more or less sync with second stage of gap reduction.

This Grand Bedroom:
The room has no walls. It is 5x5 room above constructed floor from granit blocks.
wooden bed = 120
clear glass weapon rack = 600
clear glass armor stand = 600
bismuth bronze cabinet = 720
bismuth bronze cabinet = 720
pig tail bag = 740

value of furniture = 3500
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