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Author Topic: Room Values - !!SCIENCE!!  (Read 45431 times)

Fleeting Frames

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Re: Room Values - !!SCIENCE!!
« Reply #30 on: March 21, 2020, 10:00:27 am »

No image? Doesn't matter, this is enough information.

But nonetheless, no walls means it is in third stage of gap reduction; that is: 100% of required value - additional furniture value: this is why you're getting "double value needed".

However, since additional furniture value is 3380, it should get reduced to the minimum of 30, provided additional furniture value reduces GR by just as much as in first stage (didn't test for this).

If you remove the bag, that number should be 2640, which is still above 2500 and thus the room should still be Grand.

Removing rack and stand instead should put it to 2180, GR would be 320, room total value would be +120+25= 2325, i.e. insufficient to reach grand at 2820.

To test this, might as well take the previous room:

Digging out 13th walls should drop it back to Meager:

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As expected.

Adding in a +bed+ (30) value should boost value from 134 to 164. and reduce gap reduced target value from 200 to 170.

After building bed, the room remains meager. It should require only 2 smoothed floor tiles, though...

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And indeed, this room is modest (craft guildhall value at 150, which excludes the 20 from -bed-); Q.E.D.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2020, 10:10:38 am by Fleeting Frames »
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Sarmatian123

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Re: Room Values - !!SCIENCE!!
« Reply #31 on: March 21, 2020, 10:43:00 am »

You are right.
I removed the bag. It is still grand bedroom. Value 2640 > 2500. So this value seems to be unaltered.

So maybe the 2x is applicable only to locations?

It happens I put all my dining rooms and all my offices in dinning hall areas,
so dwarves eating there will get bliss from dining in legendary location too.
Not that it helps much with stress, but it is always some boost.
If room value gets 50% discount, because of this sharing,
then there is the explanation, why I experience the 2x increased value with all values for room everywhere.
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Fleeting Frames

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Re: Room Values - !!SCIENCE!!
« Reply #32 on: March 21, 2020, 10:54:10 am »

A brief test with making second one into a room (guildhall 150-30=120 ✓) and building a third +bed+ results in 150 value guildhall - no doubling. Therefore, locations don't take shared room value penalty as well - also, that penalty is 75% for rooms, not 50%. Only penalty they get is that buildings used to designate rooms aren't counted in their value.

I imagine you're seeing 2 because you're getting up to -100% of required value gap reduction room value penalty because you have no walls.

Sarmatian123

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Re: Room Values - !!SCIENCE!!
« Reply #33 on: March 21, 2020, 11:39:50 am »

Dinning halls are designed like dinning rooms from tables. Just not assigned to anyone. So this is 75% value hit.
The location for tavern, which I put over the dinning hall and offices is not hitting negatively these rooms value. Cool.
I rather be missing walls and take this value hit tbh. Walls just block shortest paths for my Dwarves anyhow.

Interestingly, I put in the middle of my dining hall barracks now. Though not over offices or private dining tables. The dinning hall still counts as legendary.
Idle Dwarves should now have the need of learning skill fixed by improving skill of observation.
I hope it will work like alcohol stockpile in my shrine for complaining Dwarves, that they never can pray.
Now they drink, then pray. Always. :)
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Bumber

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Re: Room Values - !!SCIENCE!!
« Reply #34 on: March 21, 2020, 12:40:24 pm »

So does having a room with a door generally give you a GR penalty?

Say we have the setup:
Quote
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%.θ.%
%...%
%...%
%%
%%
.....
Where the tiles in lime green are defined as part of the room.

Am I correct in assuming the tile behind the door counts as an edge tile for purposes of GR? And that leaving that tile as a wall would solve the issue?
Quote
%%%%%
%.θ.%
%...%
%.%.%
%%
%%
.....
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Sarmatian123

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Re: Room Values - !!SCIENCE!!
« Reply #35 on: March 21, 2020, 12:54:22 pm »

Am I correct in assuming the tile behind the door counts as an edge tile for purposes of GR? And that leaving that tile as a wall would solve the issue?

Toady imagined the perfect room of Dwarf as a dug out hole in a ground, there Dwarf descents over ramp or stairs?

How about, if one tile is for the downstairs instead? Like in a sort of tree house of elves.
Downstairs count as smoothed/constructed floor then?
I think monsters can not destroy floor covers from bellow. They can do that from above though.
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Fleeting Frames

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Re: Room Values - !!SCIENCE!!
« Reply #36 on: March 21, 2020, 01:43:05 pm »

Downstairs count as rough floor/wall in value;= material value. BDs can't destroy buildings who they can't stand next to, so locked covers are safe.

@Bumber: To me it looks like your second room has two tiles of gap, not 0, but better test the hypothesis:

So I made modest quarters with total value 101 (guildhall value 81, as bed is excluded), by using  smoothed 2 wall, 8 floor tiles instead of 10 for 99.

Excluding 1 wall from room should drop it to 100, but remain Modest.

Before re-expanding, it is modest (Edit: On further testing, doors remove GR before they're built; without door being marked for building this is meager):

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After re-expanding...It's still modest - if it took 15 value penalty, it'd need more than 10 smooth tiles, in both cases.

So yeah, it seems this diagonal approach prevent GR - though mind that in case of previous tests for second stage, digging out the corner was used as a last tile, so this isn't always true Nvm, see below.

I also discovered another interesting thing:

||

The removed tiles in this shot didn't reduce craft guildhall value. It seems it takes into account the total value in a rectangle, even if the zone doesn't include a particular tile. However, excluding door reduced value properly (but only for door, not tile underneath).

In fact, if I paint max size zone, and then remove tiles, it keeps using original value:

||

This Surgeon guildhall is worth 961, despite zone only including 9 tiles.

E: On a further test, the first seems to only take floor penalty as well; digging out a wall and placing a door there turns exact-100 value room from modest to meager to back to modest to back meager on reexpanding.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2020, 01:55:21 pm by Fleeting Frames »
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muldrake

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Re: Room Values - !!SCIENCE!!
« Reply #37 on: March 22, 2020, 01:49:35 am »

So, currently, up until now, I have mainly designed "suites" for important dwarves by connecting a series of rooms on the same z level, with doors between them, and apparently, one of my designs is actually terrible for value, i.e. four rooms in a 2x2 connected at each adjoining wall (with a valuable door like gold).

Does this mean the optimal way of doing a "suite" like this is digging stairs down and instead of having the suites on the same z-level, have a central staircase and each room on a different level?  How much actual advantage is gained by doing this?

Also, more importantly, does using display cases to display valuable artifacts in a room actually do anything?  I have been trying to do this to get Royal level and without success.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2020, 01:54:40 am by muldrake »
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Sarmatian123

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Re: Room Values - !!SCIENCE!!
« Reply #38 on: March 22, 2020, 07:35:00 am »

If you put 500 value furniture in each sleeping room, then it gives maximum pleasure to Dwarves. No need for more for just pleasure from value.

For additional pleasure boost from the sleeping room, you could bother to check their material preferences. I usually go with 1 cabinet, as chests/bags can hide smelt-able items and I rather mark them on the floor for dump and after 1 month smelt them. If they like something cheap, then use gem setter to rise the price to 500 or just use gem setter to adorn their clear glass cabinets with something they prefer in gems.

These are 2 mood boosts, you can get from their rooms. One for sleeping and second for owning a special furniture.

Does this mean the optimal way of doing a "suite" like this is digging stairs down and instead of having the suites on the same z-level, have a central staircase and each room on a different level?  How much actual advantage is gained by doing this?

I think Toady had this vision of one large floor with workshops. By every workshop could be hatch covering descend on stairs to sleeping quarters of artisan using that workshop.

However it doesn't save any time for production any more, because Dwarves now have needs based on locations and pathing to those locations and between those locations is more frequent, then to sleeping room or dinning room to eat. I just put alcohol stockpile in shrine and 2 dinning rooms, one in tavern and second in library. I also put offices and special dinning rooms in these legendary dinning rooms. Furniture cost more, but Dwarves always get the right mood boost from dinning in legendary dinning room.
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Fleeting Frames

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Re: Room Values - !!SCIENCE!!
« Reply #39 on: March 22, 2020, 10:09:58 am »

Being that it's also a place where the dwarf definitely will go, it's a place to put their favourite animal/vermin on a chain/in a cage, or place a personal temple in.

@muldrake: Your gold door isn't counted for room value, though dwarves do admire it. And yeah, access through hatched staircase would be better.

An excellent bed in 2x2 unsmoothed room would be 4x4-1+5*1*10=65 value. This is still meager. If you included 1 piece of excellent gold furniture though, it'd add 5*30*10=1500 value, jumping it up 4 quality levels to Fine.

If you mark the doors as internal, it can count towards room value, though if you mark both doors connecting a room as internal then expand the rooms would be shared, take a /4 value penalty, and with just 766 total from furniture the room wouldd be quality level lower.

Rekov

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Re: Room Values - !!SCIENCE!!
« Reply #40 on: June 05, 2020, 05:48:14 pm »

Do you have any data on the value of constructed rooms? For example, is there a value difference between a room made of constructed boulder walls vs. a room made of constructed block walls of the same material?
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muldrake

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Re: Room Values - !!SCIENCE!!
« Reply #41 on: June 20, 2020, 04:26:11 am »

Do you have any data on the value of constructed rooms? For example, is there a value difference between a room made of constructed boulder walls vs. a room made of constructed block walls of the same material?

Also, is this better or worse than smoothed and engraved walls of the same substance?
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PatrikLundell

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Re: Room Values - !!SCIENCE!!
« Reply #42 on: June 20, 2020, 07:09:08 am »

Engraved masterworks walls are clearly more valuable than constructed walls of the same material, so a natural rock wall has a much higher potential than any reasonable constructed wall. I would expect walls constructed from blocks to be more valuable than ones constructed from rocks of the same material.

If you aim for value, smooth natural rock (and cast obsidian to get it if necessary). Things may change in the Premium release if the discussion about allowing constructed walls to be engraved in the graphics thread gets implemented.
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