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Author Topic: Are any MMOs good or are they all still crap?  (Read 7648 times)

Flying Dice

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Re: Are any MMOs good or are they all still crap?
« Reply #45 on: March 25, 2016, 01:56:30 pm »

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werty892

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Re: Are any MMOs good or are they all still crap?
« Reply #46 on: March 25, 2016, 02:37:53 pm »

Less focus on grind

It's called Eve.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Ah yes, the spreadsheet that only people who play the market game use. Which is about 5% of the playerbase. In my 1.5 years of playing EvE online, I have yet to make a spreadsheet. I have looked at some other people have made, but only as a reference.

EvE online is the exact opposite of grind. There is no skill grinding, and there are plenty of ways to make money without grinding.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2016, 02:39:53 pm by werty892 »
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Flying Dice

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Re: Are any MMOs good or are they all still crap?
« Reply #47 on: March 25, 2016, 03:03:27 pm »

Less focus on grind

It's called Eve.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Ah yes, the spreadsheet that only people who play the market game use. Which is about 5% of the playerbase. In my 1.5 years of playing EvE online, I have yet to make a spreadsheet. I have looked at some other people have made, but only as a reference.

EvE online is the exact opposite of grind. There is no skill grinding, and there are plenty of ways to make money without grinding.


The grind isn't the same as the stereotypical WoW-like's grind. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Currency grind instead of level/drop grind. Currency grind, for the vast majority of players, means mission grind, mining grind, or NPC bounty grind. You're doing the same things over and over for hours on end to make your numbers go up so that your character has more and better things. In most MMOs, that's exp for skill levels and rare drops. In EVE, that's ships and equipments. Worse, in most MMOs, once you get your skill levels or gear you can't lose them, ever. In EVE, you can always lose your stuff.

As you noted, very few people get into playing the market, just as very few get into running scams, confidence games, &c. Those happen to be basically the closest an EVE player comes to gaining ISK without continual grind or real money, and they represent the activity of a tiny fraction of the playerbase.

Worse, because of the game's long life and passive skill leveling, veteran players have an advantage that's well and above that of vets in most other MMOs. In GW2, for example, you can start out as a fresh player and get a toon to the level cap with full top-tier gear in less than a hundred hours. If you play Warrior, you can probably do it in less than 50. Granted, that doesn't mean you're going to be as skilled as them--you'll still get wrecked in PvP and WvW--but at least you have the same stuff available to you so that you can learn. I played ~150 hours of EVE a few years back and barely got anywhere because of how large the gap is and how slow the grind is.
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Vendayn

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Re: Are any MMOs good or are they all still crap?
« Reply #48 on: March 25, 2016, 03:03:41 pm »

EVE feels really dated to me (it is a kinda old MMO). I mean, I've played alpha star citizen, played elite and even X3 terran conflict (which I think is actually older than EVE) and they all felt far more modern than EVE does. EVE is like a point and click game, you can't actually control your ship at all. That part makes it feel like a game from the 1990s lol.

Though I did play in a nullsec alliance/corp (forgot the name, but it was a huge one) and that was a TON of fun. But I ended up stopping after a year cause I like more control over my ship or game character lol.

But the community that plays EVE...you think WoW barrens is bad? HA! EVE has by far the worst community I have ever seen in an MMO, and I've played some MMOs recently with pretty terrible communities. I think the only one that is "close" to such a bad community would be the MMORPG.com forums lol and that is a website not a game. Even my own corp/alliance I was in was terrible lol, in fact it was starting to make me terrible in real life too (one other reason I quit).
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lordcooper

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Re: Are any MMOs good or are they all still crap?
« Reply #49 on: March 25, 2016, 03:10:18 pm »



It's the ultimate sandbox.  I strongly suspect there are two reasons why one might find it boring or directionless.  First is that they bounced off before they properly understood the game, second is that they're simply a boring or directionless person.

EVE feels really dated to me (it is a kinda old MMO). I mean, I've played alpha star citizen, played elite and even X3 terran conflict (which I think is actually older than EVE) and they all felt far more modern than EVE does. EVE is like a point and click game, you can't actually control your ship at all. That part makes it feel like a game from the 1990s lol.

It's not trying to compete with or imitate any of those games.  Comparing it to them does a disservice to both.
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Gentlefish

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Re: Are any MMOs good or are they all still crap?
« Reply #50 on: March 25, 2016, 03:14:12 pm »

...Are graphics a requirement?

Achaea is a MUD with about 200 people online at a time. I like it a lot, personally. Cities and Houses are all Player-run and there's plenty of delicious arpee and PvE/PvP opportunities.

E: Ignore the video. It's garbage, haha. It goes over the basics okay but man. It's trash.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2016, 03:18:44 pm by Gentlefish »
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Vendayn

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Re: Are any MMOs good or are they all still crap?
« Reply #51 on: March 25, 2016, 03:18:07 pm »


EVE feels really dated to me (it is a kinda old MMO). I mean, I've played alpha star citizen, played elite and even X3 terran conflict (which I think is actually older than EVE) and they all felt far more modern than EVE does. EVE is like a point and click game, you can't actually control your ship at all. That part makes it feel like a game from the 1990s lol.

It's not trying to compete with or imitate any of those games.  Comparing it to them does a disservice to both.

Yeah I mean it is its own game. I was just not a big fan of the control system, personally like control over where I can go. But you are right, it is not good to compare them...its just not my type of movement lol. I couldn't really stop at certain locations, I think that bugged me the most. Like (not to compare them) in Ultima Online I can go to any spot on the map. But in EVE I always have to go to a landmark of some kind, I couldn't just stop somewhere (unless I ran out of power with warping).

I did have a ton of fun in nullsec though and being involved in huge wars of hundreds of people on both sides. Even if the community sucked, it was still a lot of fun in the higher end part of the game. A lot of people just stay in highsec, but that was the most boring part of the game lol.
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Flying Dice

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Re: Are any MMOs good or are they all still crap?
« Reply #52 on: March 25, 2016, 03:25:10 pm »

It's the ultimate sandbox.  I strongly suspect there are two reasons why one might find it boring or directionless.  First is that they bounced off before they properly understood the game, second is that they're simply a boring or directionless person.

Allow me to clarify: There's no counter for me to check, but I've put probably somewhere in the neighborhood of 800+ hours into Aurora, and none of those were boring. It's got even more of a reputation for being a spreadsheet/menu simulator than EVE, not unjustly. It's got almost no graphical component, no objectives, no inherent plot, no campaign or skirmish missions, and in fact basically zero player direction at all. It's a fucking blast. I haven't played as much Starfarer Starsector, but it's essentially the same premise as EVE minus the MMO aspect and the endless fucking grind. I love it.

I bounced off because I saw what EVE was: the culmination of boring MMO grind populated almost solely by shitty people. I have zero interest in spending hundreds of hours playing through dull, repetitive content for the privilege of participating in slightly less boring player-driven content when I have a dozen games with the same rich, creative endgame not gated by grind.

I played Runescape when I was younger. Not bad, as far as grind went, but that taught me a goddamn good lesson about MUDs and MMOs and is the main reason why I've almost totally avoided them since. I can get fun player-driven shenanigans from games that don't have the idiotic life-wasting grind, I can get the satisfaction of watching my numbers go up from RPGs that don't lock my fun behind inaccessible doors, and I can get my story-creating pleasure from real sandbox games.

The EVE endgame is fucking fantastic. It's one of the most innovative, interesting MMOs ever made. I'm not going to waste literal weeks or months of my life grinding to get there when I can get the better stories in my news feed and share a laugh in between playing games that don't put their fun up on a pedestal that you can only access after staring at it for X hours while reading a book on the side.
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lordcooper

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Re: Are any MMOs good or are they all still crap?
« Reply #53 on: March 25, 2016, 03:53:16 pm »

I bounced off because I saw what EVE was: the culmination of boring MMO grind populated almost solely by shitty people. I have zero interest in spending hundreds of hours playing through dull, repetitive content for the privilege of participating in slightly less boring player-driven content when I have a dozen games with the same rich, creative endgame not gated by grind.

I'd strongly disagree that it's any more full of shitty people than any other online game, but subjective thing is subjective so I'll not waste my time arguing there.  As for 'dull, repetitive content', just don't do that?  I'm starting to get the impression you never left isec and ran *shudder* missions.  There are scores of good corporations (Pandemic Horde being the best at present IMO; some of the others include Dreddit, Eve Uni and Karmafleet) who will take in a day one player, give them free skillbooks/ships etc and take them out on fleets right away.  These corps have mentoring programs and can get you involved in almost any area of the game right away.  I'm still a relatively new player and make my isk through a combination of scams, market manipulation and (mainly) the loot from other player's wrecks.  There's only grind if you're incapable of thinking outside the box even a little.

Quote
The EVE endgame is fucking fantastic. It's one of the most innovative, interesting MMOs ever made. I'm not going to waste literal weeks or months of my life grinding to get there when I can get the better stories in my news feed and share a laugh in between playing games that don't put their fun up on a pedestal that you can only access after staring at it for X hours while reading a book on the side.

Uh, what do you think the endgame is (not fully rhetorical, I'm kinda interested)?  Because there isn't one, there's only the game.  I got my first solo kill about a week in and lead my first corp about a month in.  You're thinking of it in Themepark MMO terms which is basically the surest sign of someone who doesn't quite understand the game.

What did you actually do while playing, and why did you choose to do those things if you don't enjoy them?
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itisnotlogical

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Re: Are any MMOs good or are they all still crap?
« Reply #54 on: March 25, 2016, 03:56:04 pm »

... There's interesting content along the way to the endgame, you know. Maybe it's not 100% an action-packed thrillride funtacular all the way through but there's something worthwhile. Almost every sungeon in WoW is dangerous enough to require you to pay attention and use your abilities smartly, and your strategies will change as you earn new abilities and decide which ones to incorporate into your strategy. STO's missions are actually well-written for MMO plots, and are usually worth at least paying attention to, such as a mission where you go back in time to an Original Series space station. I didn't play Devilian for very long, but even the extremely early-game PvP was a huge blast. I didn't have to spend hours and hours mindlessly grinding to reach these things.

It's like saying that all roguelikes are archaic ASCII garbage for self-flagellating power-users, or that all JRPGs are pretentious anime trash. Saying that all MMOs are mindless grinds is misleading, limiting and honestly kinda flamebaity.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2016, 04:26:07 pm by itisnotlogical »
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Antioch

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Re: Are any MMOs good or are they all still crap?
« Reply #55 on: March 25, 2016, 04:30:55 pm »

...

I'd strongly disagree that it's any more full of shitty people than any other online game, but subjective thing is subjective so I'll not waste my time arguing there.  As for 'dull, repetitive content', just don't do that?  I'm starting to get the impression you never left isec and ran *shudder* missions.  There are scores of good corporations (Pandemic Horde being the best at present IMO; some of the others include Dreddit, Eve Uni and Karmafleet) who will take in a day one player, give them free skillbooks/ships etc and take them out on fleets right away.  These corps have mentoring programs and can get you involved in almost any area of the game right away.  I'm still a relatively new player and make my isk through a combination of scams, market manipulation and (mainly) the loot from other player's wrecks.  There's only grind if you're incapable of thinking outside the box even a little.

Quote
...

Uh, what do you think the endgame is (not fully rhetorical, I'm kinda interested)?  Because there isn't one, there's only the game.  I got my first solo kill about a week in and lead my first corp about a month in.  You're thinking of it in Themepark MMO terms which is basically the surest sign of someone who doesn't quite understand the game.

What did you actually do while playing, and why did you choose to do those things if you don't enjoy them?

To break even by killing and looting other players a player has to achieve a k/d ratio of over 2.0. Piracy does not create value in the game, it only destroys it. To support it a vast amount of grinding has to be done by others. Being one of the few that can cream off that grind does not negate the fact that EVE contains massive amounts of grind.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2016, 12:25:27 pm by Antioch »
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Niveras

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Re: Are any MMOs good or are they all still crap?
« Reply #56 on: March 25, 2016, 04:58:34 pm »

The only "traditional" MMO I've played that was above "meh" level was Lord Of The Rings Online, but its basically dead now. Shame - it was fucking fantastic.

LOTRO has beautiful world-building and, I would guess, probably the biggest writing department of any MMO, with every quest having extensive descriptions (often multiple paragraphs) and often dialogue as well (albeit not voiced, of course).

The problem is combat sucks. It's very... stiff. It was kind of fine back at release when everyone was coming from EQ (though I would say even EQ1 was more fluid than LOTRO), and EQ2 and WoW were just new, but it has never improved, and I'm pretty sure it is the reason (other than just simple age) that LOTRO is slowly dying. Hell, they even made it worse: no one likes how mounted combat turned out.
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Arbinire

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Re: Are any MMOs good or are they all still crap?
« Reply #57 on: March 25, 2016, 09:32:21 pm »

The only "traditional" MMO I've played that was above "meh" level was Lord Of The Rings Online, but its basically dead now. Shame - it was fucking fantastic.

LOTRO has beautiful world-building and, I would guess, probably the biggest writing department of any MMO, with every quest having extensive descriptions (often multiple paragraphs) and often dialogue as well (albeit not voiced, of course).

The problem is combat sucks. It's very... stiff. It was kind of fine back at release when everyone was coming from EQ (though I would say even EQ1 was more fluid than LOTRO), and EQ2 and WoW were just new, but it has never improved, and I'm pretty sure it is the reason (other than just simple age) that LOTRO is slowly dying. Hell, they even made it worse: no one likes how mounted combat turned out.

The regular combat isn't too bad, kind of standard MMORPG fair over Action-MMO, but yeah the mounted combat was really bad, but an excellent case for "be careful what you ask for".  I think honestly a lot of the changes they made to "streamline" the game, like putting in skill trees in place of the original skill system, lack of group content since Isengard, and rescaling content to single-player focus has done more to kill the game than it's combat system has.

SWTOR is suffering pretty much the same fate now, but then again SWTOR has been a study in "what not to do to make a successful MMO" since it's release.
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