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Author Topic: Fallout: Equestria (v0.30c) Pinkie Pie is Watching  (Read 478986 times)

Iceblaster

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Re: Fallout: Equestria (v0.30) Pinkie Pie is Watching
« Reply #2040 on: March 25, 2013, 01:55:31 pm »

>>Though a 1-tile building that just requires the chair and gives some relaxation reactions would be amsuing
>Relaxtion would be better suited for the Philosopher's Garden

Idea! The 'lawn chair' reaction would be less than the Philospher's Garden BUT would give a slight boost to speed while the Philosopher's Garden gives a better bonus but doesn't give the speed bonus

Thirtyeight

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Re: Fallout: Equestria (v0.30) Pinkie Pie is Watching
« Reply #2041 on: March 25, 2013, 02:25:08 pm »

What do you guys think about a salvaged tank cannon as a siege weapon? It could use huge shells, but would otherwise be similar in design and function as arbalists?
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Byakugan01

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Re: Fallout: Equestria (v0.30) Pinkie Pie is Watching
« Reply #2042 on: March 25, 2013, 02:32:41 pm »

Just felt the need to point out crazies like me do exist, Maklak. ;) Not discouraging you from discussing everything you find in any way.

As far as tank guns...those (conventional explosive, I think the plasma are a tad more malleable) are a bit more complicated then just "remove and set up as turret", I think. And Ballistae would be all wrong to act as a model of behavior-a tank shell from the main cannon generally hits one thing. The catapult would be a far better model, but catapults don't do a terribly good job of simulating HE weaponry, and I'm not sure if tank shots are meant to arc or not. A ballista model would also be more trouble than its worth to train, given how slowly siege operator generally trains and the value of the shots you are going to be using. USING a salvaged tank as a turret...now, that's a different fish entirely. The only tanks I know of in FO:E though are the Skytanks, and those are Enclave tech. As far as I know, when ponies and zebras needed heavy armor support, they didn't use tanks. They  just fielded heavy robots (or Steel Rangers) for the job. That's why they called it an anti-machine rifle, and not an anti-material rifle, I believe.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2013, 02:43:17 pm by Byakugan01 »
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From Mr. Welch's 1350 things he is not allowed to do in a RPG:
148. There is no Gnomish Deathgrip, and even if there was, it wouldn't involve tongs.
171. My character's dying words are not allowed to be "Hastur, Hastur, Hastur"
218. No matter my alignment, organizing halfling pit fights is a violation.
231. I am not allowed to do anything that would make a Sith Lord cry.
240. Any character with more than three skills specializing in chainsaw is vetoed.

Thirtyeight

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Re: Fallout: Equestria (v0.30) Pinkie Pie is Watching
« Reply #2043 on: March 25, 2013, 02:54:16 pm »

Well, it was an idea.

Dangit, its surprisingly hard to come up with ways to contribute to this mod.
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Byakugan01

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Re: Fallout: Equestria (v0.30) Pinkie Pie is Watching
« Reply #2044 on: March 25, 2013, 02:58:40 pm »

Reading FO:E and researching Fallout lore is a good way to start. Seriously, there's alot of stuff out there. If you have the time, it might not be a bad idea to browse the Fallout Wiki and see what you can come up with. TVTropes could work too, so long as you can keep yourself limited in your search...

Edit: Is it me, or is this version of the mod triggering quite a few crashes compared to earlier releases? Haven't had one yet, but then I have not gotten far.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2013, 03:07:37 pm by Byakugan01 »
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From Mr. Welch's 1350 things he is not allowed to do in a RPG:
148. There is no Gnomish Deathgrip, and even if there was, it wouldn't involve tongs.
171. My character's dying words are not allowed to be "Hastur, Hastur, Hastur"
218. No matter my alignment, organizing halfling pit fights is a violation.
231. I am not allowed to do anything that would make a Sith Lord cry.
240. Any character with more than three skills specializing in chainsaw is vetoed.

Neowulf

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Re: Fallout: Equestria (v0.30) Pinkie Pie is Watching
« Reply #2045 on: March 25, 2013, 03:00:44 pm »

I'd like to have an option of making plastics and concrete furniture, but I don't expect it to be efficient or valuable.

> Though a 1-tile building that just requires the chair and gives some relaxation reactions would be amusing.
Relaxation would be better suited for the philosopher's garden.
First embark crashed in summer, so I decided to whip these up.
The bakelite stuff is in the chemistry bench because it was handy and kept it local. Requires wax working and everything but blocks, pipe sections, and flasks take two globs. I'd say that's a pretty decent byproduct sink.
The concrete furniture reactions all require 4 worthless stone and 1 flux and make 5 products at once (could be bumped up). I figure concrete makes a good mass production option at the expense of value. All in the stone foundry and require masonry.

Full changes I've done:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Hopefully no typos in there. Testing em out now.

>>Though a 1-tile building that just requires the chair and gives some relaxation reactions would be amsuing
>Relaxtion would be better suited for the Philosopher's Garden

Idea! The 'lawn chair' reaction would be less than the Philospher's Garden BUT would give a slight boost to speed while the Philosopher's Garden gives a better bonus but doesn't give the speed bonus
As for lawnchair vs philosopher, I figured philosopher would produce a training boulder so you get a skill up while the lawnchair just has an empty reaction that gives happy thoughts but no skill ups.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2013, 10:28:14 am by Neowulf »
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Iceblaster

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Re: Fallout: Equestria (v0.30) Pinkie Pie is Watching
« Reply #2046 on: March 25, 2013, 03:09:56 pm »

>>Though a 1-tile building that just requires the chair and gives some relaxation reactions would be amsuing
>Relaxtion would be better suited for the Philosopher's Garden

Idea! The 'lawn chair' reaction would be less than the Philospher's Garden BUT would give a slight boost to speed while the Philosopher's Garden gives a better bonus but doesn't give the speed bonus
As for lawnchair vs philosopher, I figured philosopher would produce a training boulder so you get a skill up while the lawnchair just has an empty reaction that gives happy thoughts but no skill ups.

Or that

Maklak

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Re: Fallout: Equestria (v0.30) Pinkie Pie is Watching
« Reply #2047 on: March 25, 2013, 03:47:41 pm »

> Idea! The 'lawn chair' reaction would be less than the Philospher's Garden BUT would give a slight boost to speed while the Philosopher's Garden gives a better bonus but doesn't give the speed bonus.
Meh, just build a theatre, get a leadership pony and spam masterwork speeches. Too bad we can't automatically add one speech per week. If I get a "chair workshop" I may use it, but I don't really see the point and besides, dfhack guys haven't yet worked out all the problems in thought affecting interactions, I think.

> What do you guys think about a salvaged tank cannon as a siege weapon? It could use huge shells, but would otherwise be similar in design and function as arbalists?
I wasn't paying much attention to that part of the RAWs, but I think the balista ammo is renamed to "artillery shell". I also saw some dfhack script to aim a siege engine that might make them usable. It's just that I tried siege engines in df once and decided they weren't any good.
Putman made a script that can make some kinds of ammo produce magma on impact. Now this and a couple of other effects (that aren't doable yet) could make artillery (or balefire egg launcher pony-portable weapons) much more powerful and interesting. Just consider how fun it would be to blow up a whole squad from a siege and any friendlies that happened to be in vicinity. But that isn't going to happen anytime soon. Well, except for mines of course.

> Dangit, its surprisingly hard to come up with ways to contribute to this mod.
??? Yes and no. Lyceaon is good at coming up with the right things on his own and great with RAW wizardry (such as chains of interactions), but somehow I write long posts after most patches.
If you don't want to read the RAWs, you can still play the game, describe what you did and what happened, what was too easy or too hard, too little or too plentiful and so on. To come up with doable suggestions you need some understanding of how the game works, but otherwise ripping off ideas from Fallout, FoE sidefics and any other post-apocalyptic settings is a solid advice.

> Bakelite reactions.
I don't like "make nylon" and "make pleather" because they have a by-product. Regardless of how this works IRL, I'll normally want to decide if I want synthetic fibres, plastics of synthetic leather and I don't want the by-products to accumulate. But that said, unless I run the reactions hundreds of times, it won't be a problem.
Bakelite blocks use the same amount of Bakelite as furniture. While it makes sense that blocks require a lot of material, this is not how DF generally works.
> Requires wax working and everything but blocks, pipe sections, and flasks take two globs.
This is not what your RAWs say.

This is how I would like concrete to work:
* The reaction to make blocks should be more efficient than the mason shop blocks. After all I'm putting more effort (including the use of Flux) into it than just setting Mason on repeat. Besides, when making blocks, there are generally some leftovers, while concrete accepts it all (gravel, rubble, whatever). The reaction should probably be moved to the stone grinder as the rocks need to be grinded into sand and Flux grinded and heated (but let's keep [FUEL] out of this). All in all I'd say 30 blocks per reaction is reasonable.
* The reactions to make everything else, like furniture, should accept concrete blocks. Preferably 2 or 3 per  piece of furniture (and cloth for the bed of course).
From a certain standpoint, concrete's role compared to stone is as plywood's compared to wood: give us a uniform material and also make the reactions more efficient at the cost of an extra step and storage. This may not be exactly how it works in real life, but efficiency is a good reason to use plywood over wood (once I figure out how to stockpile it) and there should be a similar incentive for concrete.

It's ironic that the "finally out of beta" version of this mod is after such big changes (expeditions and autosyndromes are huge) and crashes.

EDIT: Oh, the Fallout Mod has updated and it has exploding grenades for adventurers.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2013, 03:50:29 pm by Maklak »
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Neowulf

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Re: Fallout: Equestria (v0.30) Pinkie Pie is Watching
« Reply #2048 on: March 25, 2013, 04:24:44 pm »

I don't like "make nylon" and "make pleather" because they have a by-product. Regardless of how this works IRL, I'll normally want to decide if I want synthetic fibres, plastics of synthetic leather and I don't want the by-products to accumulate. But that said, unless I run the reactions hundreds of times, it won't be a problem.
Bakelite blocks use the same amount of Bakelite as furniture. While it makes sense that blocks require a lot of material, this is not how DF generally works.
I'm playing around with bakelite as a byproduct of the polymer reactions because it's decidedly not like real life. It's to simulate the inefficiencies of cobbled together machines producing complex chemicals in stressful environments.
It's also to take the bite out of the cost of nylon without making silk too plentiful.
5 oil per silk is painful, but less is too easy. So add a useful (just less so) extra product and it doesn't seem so bad dropping 5 cloth/25 drink worth of plant input for 1 cloth worth of silk.

This is not what your RAWs say.
Crap, typos...
Will edit. Meant to be 1 glob for 2 bricks, 1 pipe, or 3 flasks and 2 globs for everything else.

This is how I would like concrete to work:
* The reaction to make blocks should be more efficient than the mason shop blocks. After all I'm putting more effort (including the use of Flux) into it than just setting Mason on repeat. Besides, when making blocks, there are generally some leftovers, while concrete accepts it all (gravel, rubble, whatever). The reaction should probably be moved to the stone grinder as the rocks need to be grinded into sand and Flux grinded and heated (but let's keep [FUEL] out of this). All in all I'd say 30 blocks per reaction is reasonable.
* The reactions to make everything else, like furniture, should accept concrete blocks. Preferably 2 or 3 per  piece of furniture (and cloth for the bed of course).
From a certain standpoint, concrete's role compared to stone is as plywood's compared to wood: give us a uniform material and also make the reactions more efficient at the cost of an extra step and storage. This may not be exactly how it works in real life, but efficiency is a good reason to use plywood over wood (once I figure out how to stockpile it) and there should be a similar incentive for concrete.
I don't like the idea of making concrete blocks into other stuff. If anything I'd like to see a concrete mix item that is made from grinding stones+flux (25-30 bags per reaction) and those bags are then used to make bricks and furniture.
Not a big fan of the idea that yesterday's concrete kitchen floor can be deconstructed and turned into tabes and chairs.


All that said, take the additions I provided and tweak them to your liking.
The whole reason I'm doing this is so Lycaeon has some info on how changes like these actually work in game.
What feels better, bakelite as a byproduct or as a separate reaction? Concrete as a plywood copy, blocks that get carved, or straight to furniture?
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gzoker

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Re: Fallout: Equestria (v0.30) Pinkie Pie is Watching
« Reply #2049 on: March 25, 2013, 05:52:21 pm »

Firefox ate my post. Writing it again. Sigh.
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Thirtyeight

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Re: Fallout: Equestria (v0.30) Pinkie Pie is Watching
« Reply #2050 on: March 25, 2013, 06:04:52 pm »

I heard you guys mention something about giant trees, and how they can be modified into prefab structures, like ruins and bunkers. I haven't been having any luck finding more info about this, did Toady say anything officially?


If so, what sort of structures are you thinking about making, Lycaeon?
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Treason

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Re: Fallout: Equestria (v0.30) Pinkie Pie is Watching
« Reply #2051 on: March 25, 2013, 06:11:08 pm »

Maklak:

Build a sawmill.

Pause your game.

Designate a finished goods stockpile next to your plywood shop.

Set it to take from link only.

Set it to take from the sawmill.

Disable Plywood from your main finished goods stockpile(s).

Unpause your game.
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Iceblaster

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Re: Fallout: Equestria (v0.30) Pinkie Pie is Watching
« Reply #2052 on: March 25, 2013, 06:38:42 pm »

Didn't see this in the guide, but where do you produce Clear Glass Vials?

Lycaeon

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Re: Fallout: Equestria (v0.30) Pinkie Pie is Watching
« Reply #2053 on: March 25, 2013, 06:55:42 pm »

I’m aware of the multiple bugs and will release a hotfix when I get the chance, along with improvements from recent suggestions. I haven’t been able to replicate the military equip screen crash yet, so I’d like someone who has to post the exact steps. If anyone experiences crashes in areas other than the military screen, let me know. In the meantime you can quicksave by pressing [Ctrl-Shift-Q].

> Didn't see this in the guide, but where do you produce Clear Glass Vials?
At the glass furnace, along with the other glass items.

> Crate food expansion
> Bakelite/Plastic leather/lawnchair/concrete expansion
> Theatre changes
Noted, but unlikely to be added anytime soon due to time issues, though I do appreciate the effort Neowulf and others have put into plastics. Concrete production will be made more efficient, however.

Gzoker: Thanks for informing me about the expedition bugginess - I’ll remove the hostile creatures spawned as there’s already a base chance of dying during the expedition.

Maklak: Script based changing of emotional states and relationships is on the list, but isn’t a priority, as linking them to reactions was only recently introduced and potentially unstable as a result.

> Insta-kill assassins
As of the last update they’re no longer in the mod.

> Nurse Redhearts healing patients independently.
They require a trigger to heal, as otherwise they would just put random ponies down for a week, thus the need for a reaction to designate patients.

> Nerfing auto-injectors.
Even max recuperation doesn’t provide much of an advantage in battle as there’s not enough time for major wounds to heal. Healing potions in the novel (And stimpaks in Fallout) nearly instantly healed even mortal wounds, which is far stronger than in the mod.

> Larger hazmat suit size.
> There should be low chances for interrogated prisoners to know about other factions.
> MAXVEL of air guns should be increased to at least a hundred.
> Anvil from salvage and moving reactions to the end of the salvage yard list.
Ok.

> E:\dfapi\plugins\autoSyndrome.cpp line 284:Couldn’t find unit -1
That’s a bug with the plugin that expwnent will fix. As far as I'm aware it doesn't have any ingame effects.

> How about you reverse the scrap ore drop from salvage
There’s more low-quality salvage overall than high-quality, but I’ll consider it.

> Changing PRINT_MODE to STANDARD.
STANDARD prevents TrueType from working, though you can change it on your own.

> The smelter has a "melt pewter bars (use ore) (prism)" as well as "melt pewter bars (use ore)". The first one belongs at the Prismatic smelter.
Nice catch! :)

> I can't find the option to stockpile plywood boards.
Plywood boards are stone toys and should be stockpiled as such.

> Pikamena suggestions
Pinkamenas work quite well as they are now - they bait disarmed enemies released from cages to attack them, then interrogate when in range, while being too hardy to be damaged by unarmed victims and too weak to damage them.

> Anyway, this is development thread and we should be free to discuss spoilers about the updates.
Fair enough, though I still prefer to keep small Easter eggs like individual creatures and items under wraps.

Thanks again Maklak! :)

Thirtyeight: Heavy weapons like you described may be possible, but aren't necessary at the moment. Energy weapons and low-yield explosives are higher-priority, and will likely use Putnam's explosives script once I get a handle on it.

> Dangit, its surprisingly hard to come up with ways to contribute to this mod
Nearly all of my design decisions come from the novel or elements of Fallout ported to the FoE universe, with creative liberties taken during conversion into DF gameplay. For example, the Pinkamenas aren't in the novel, but are the only means of applying memory extraction to hostile prisoners, given that ponies will either attack or run.

> I heard you guys mention something about giant trees, and how they can be modified into prefab structures, like ruins and bunkers.
That is the best case scenario, and would allow for the simulation of ruined skyscrapers and other buildings, but Toady hasn't revealed how moddable the new trees will be yet.

Much thanks for the feedback everyone! :D
« Last Edit: March 25, 2013, 07:02:17 pm by Lycaeon »
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gzoker

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Re: Fallout: Equestria (v0.30) Pinkie Pie is Watching
« Reply #2054 on: March 25, 2013, 07:50:32 pm »

This new expedition system is really FUN, and i have a few observations i would like to share.

The main reason to use the system is to get creates. Resources like scrap is in second place, but only after we have used up all the resources from the map. We want technology.
Scavenging the wasteland is not profitable even with the low risk and small squad requirement, because it only gives low quality salvage. Same with the irradiated wastelands, in my experience we can only get medium salvage from there. It also increases the chance to lose a skilled pony on the expedition. Deathlands will definitely kill ponies either directly or indirectly, so even if we get high quality salvage we won't really gain anything because we lose the resources we used for training those ponies. No net gain = bad. I couldn't try out the assaults on enemy bases, but I suppose it has the same risk-reward ratio as the other ones just scaled up. The additional resources ( MOM intel ) just further deceasing the net gain from these reactions which makes them worse.
One solution could be that every expedition would only bring back high quality salvage. As the risk increases, so does the number of logs.

Maklak has described a related problem and the solution a few post before, but i will reiterate:
Problem: we don't have enough scrap metal, and low and medium quality salvage isn't really useful. Solution: make low quality salvage the source of scrap, and high quality salvage the source of tech. Medium quality salvage in my opinion could have all the supplementary items like buckets, chains, guns and melee weapons too. So we would know what we will get ( at least more accurately ) when we salvage, but still have that lottery feeling. This would balance out the usefulness of salvage; in the wasteland everything is useful to somepony, even if it's just piece of rusted metal, it could be smelted. So drop rates should be balanced out across the board.
Also, this way the number of dropped salvage logs per expedition would make much more sense, and the frequency of the high quality salvage would not be a problem anymore.

Another side of the same problem: the expedition system gives us a way to get more salvage, but at the expense of pony lives. It would make sense in the wasteland to send the best of the herd on crucial missions, but after ~50 expeditions I have come to the conclusion that skill and equipment doesn't increase survival rate. So in game in my experience the best strategy is to send out on the expedition the blind, two legged cripple, the pony with all the rotten body parts, the melancholic one from the previous mission and all the foals you can burrow inside the room; then simply just station inside the whole military too, and let them deal with what comes back. Or just have a bridge as the other part of the room, and drop the sleeping ponies on the expedition a z-level down, and sacrifice the expedition's leader. I don't have to say, beating the system is highly counter-intuitive and absolutely unrealistic. Unfortunately by beating i mean using it efficiently.

So here is an alternative as a suggestion. We could have a mercenary outpost building, from where we could send out mercenary expeditions into areas of the wasteland in exchange for caps. They could bring back the salvage for us, and our puny little stable ponies could stay behind their big steel door in safety. Caps could be a lootable item, so actively fighting enemies would have a nice reward, but also tradeable so with a steady economy we could achieve the same. We could also buy special contracts from talon groups or slavers or rangers to go to the more dangerous parts of post-apocalyptic equestria.
PROS: having a similar function as the expeditions; the security force of the stable could concentrate on their role; it would introduce mercenaries in a pleasing manner; it would introduce caps, an important part of the wasteland feeling; it would scale better with the size of a stable;
CONS: having a similar function as the expeditions; it would take time to implement; and everything Maklak is going to say about it (joke)

My last thought on the matter, the expedition system as it is now is fun and FUN, but it's only real option for a mature stable with a lot of ponies. In smaller stables it's only usable if we exploit it - playing it as intended have massive drawbacks. The chance of losing the small militia we need to survive is one for example. It would be better if it was balanced in the future with more playstyles in mind not just the ones with unlimited ponypower.

Well Lycaeon, you have replied before i could rewrite my post. I will try out the expedition system again after the hotfix you mentioned, but until i then i will stay away. I will leave this here as food for thought in any case.
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