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Author Topic: This is a fantastic game but it's time to get with the future!  (Read 7290 times)

misko27

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Re: This is a fantastic game but it's time to get with the future!
« Reply #30 on: November 11, 2012, 10:36:35 pm »

I always find it odd when people say "This is  great indie game, but you know what would make it better? Graphics! And make it like everything else! Also graphics."
 
Does Toady rely only on DF donations to survive? Pay his bills etc etc

What is taken in each month for donations isnt even what I take in each month before taxes. My jobs about avg around here for someone without a college degree.Its getting difficult for me to survive with the costs of everything rising as rapidly as they do anymore.

Toady never answers the ui/graphics questions in a definite answer.A definite answer would most likely chase off some of the people waiting for a ui/graphics overhaul and with them donations.
The Sept report shows he is surprised nobody is excited.I can only guess his deduction that we arent excited is shown in the low amount of donations.

If Toady ever plans to get more in donations then he is currently getting, more depth isnt going to do it.It will take at the least a ui overhaul and most likely stone sense style graphics.

I myself love the game, its a fantastic game with so much depth and detail its amazing.
Yes, as far as we are aware this is his only job (He may double on the side as batman or something, But I doubt he would tell us that.) Yes, there are PLENTY of Toady's answers to this question, most are quoted in threads like these. Hell, I've seen one in a signature. Point is, Yes, UI is needed and, eventually, going to be re-worked. Graphics are not. Even if the computers of the future could handle it, it'd be a absolutely MASSIVE task to undertake. Massive. Even the thought of it terrifies me. Giving Graphics to a DF of the Future would require at least a Nobel Prize in recompense.

No, he really does not care about getting more players. He'd still work on it even if everyone played and demanded graphics or no one played at all (although he would certainly get on that Batman side-job). Tis his game, And he will make it his way.



There's a big difference between multi-tile static (or mostly static) objects, and multi-tile objects that move around constantly. There would also be game balancing issues which we don't have right now because of abstractness.

Think about wagons. If a wagon takes up 9x the area of a dwarf, and a dragon is a few dozen times as large, how many tiles would a dragon be? There are many creatures that take up massive amounts of space compared to a dwarf, but take the same tile size. If we increased this, they wouldn't be able to invade dwarves, and would just be trapped outside.
While from a story telling perspective, it's fun to just escape by running through a pass smaller than the creature chasing you, it's very abusable gameplay-wise. If we had 1-tile wide entrances, most dangerous/large enemies wouldn't be able to attack us, and we could just hide inside and take pot shots. Then what about rats and creatures as small to a dwarf as a dwarf is to a titan? Would tiles need to be made smaller, or would they magically be considered as big as a dwarf while a dragon is larger?

While I agree about your thoughts about this matter I still think it's pretty much doable, remember Toady has said he wants invaders to be able to dig , climb walls and probably also affect terrain in some way (a giant smashing an entrance to pulp for example trapping dwarves inside) , but yes, I do not disagree that it will definitely be a big brainer issue.

I will think though that some of the megabeasts will instead be smarter and prey on your outside dwarves, dragons would use their firy breath more and so on, perhaps they would even send "minions" to mass invade your fortress (Dragon commanding a goblin force). There's definitely many possibilities.

It's very much doable, and an AI rework will come eventually, but I really think this is so far away that anything we say now will not matter. By the time we get to these things, our very core mechanics could've completely changed.
Even thinking of the logistical head-aches from that is mind-blowing.
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Man In Zero G

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Re: This is a fantastic game but it's time to get with the future!
« Reply #31 on: November 11, 2012, 10:57:45 pm »

What is taken in each month for donations isnt even what I take in each month before taxes. My jobs about avg around here for someone without a college degree.Its getting difficult for me to survive with the costs of everything rising as rapidly as they do anymore.

The funny part of this is, cost of living is radically different depending on where you live.
Toady makes more in donations in the average month than my and my wife's combined income, and our family of four lives quite comfortably.
So, looking at raw numbers and implying Toady's not making enough to live on is silly. Obviously he is, or he'd do something else to make money for his survival.
It's all a matter of perspective.
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GreatWyrmGold

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Re: This is a fantastic game but it's time to get with the future!
« Reply #32 on: November 11, 2012, 11:11:21 pm »

Toady seems to be focusing on features first, presumably so he doesn't have to fiddle a complex, in-depth UI each time he adds a new feature that affects it.
That's his plan, and I understand it. This is unlikely to change it.

Sorry if the debate has moved on.
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pivole

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Re: This is a fantastic game but it's time to get with the future!
« Reply #33 on: November 12, 2012, 06:11:18 am »

That's a point actually. The game is an Alpha. It's not meant to be pretty yet. It's meant to be getting it to work, and cover all that was wanted.
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Halnoth

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Re: This is a fantastic game but it's time to get with the future!
« Reply #34 on: November 12, 2012, 09:00:44 am »

I see the conversation is civil so far but really why is everyone feeding such an obvious troll? This topic always devolves.
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HiEv

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Re: This is a fantastic game but it's time to get with the future!
« Reply #35 on: November 12, 2012, 12:47:55 pm »

I see the conversation is civil so far but really why is everyone feeding such an obvious troll? This topic always devolves.

I'm confused.  Are you happy that we're not being rude and starting a fight, or upset that we're not being rude and starting a fight?

Because you seem to be saying the former while being the latter.  ???

Personally, I don't think the OP is a troll at all.
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AutomataKittay

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Re: This is a fantastic game but it's time to get with the future!
« Reply #36 on: November 12, 2012, 01:00:36 pm »

I see the conversation is civil so far but really why is everyone feeding such an obvious troll? This topic always devolves.

I'm confused.  Are you happy that we're not being rude and starting a fight, or upset that we're not being rude and starting a fight?

Because you seem to be saying the former while being the latter.  ???

Personally, I don't think the OP is a troll at all.

I did wondered about the troll part, but since there're no trouble-stirring, I figure it's just concidence that there've been at least three threads on UI and graphics in past few days that I've seen :D

Then again, maybe everyone are the trolls for having opinions and some of them strongly. Or just being confused by the complaints?
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Damiac

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Re: This is a fantastic game but it's time to get with the future!
« Reply #37 on: November 12, 2012, 01:52:48 pm »

Not everyone who says something you disagree with is a troll.

Yeah, I have to agree with the majority here, 3d is a giant undertaking which would take away from the development of other features, as well as slowing down future development.  Not to mention the game already slows my PC to a crawl with ascii graphics... 

However, I have to disagree when people just say "3d is bad".  If there was a magic button to make DF 3d, with no extra work required, I would press it...

And you can't say "DF is meant to be a realistic fantasy simulation", and then say "3d would be bad because it points out glaring flaws in what is supposed to be a realistic fantasy simulation"

Toady has already said he wants to have multi tile creatures, so saying 3d would be bad because it wouldn't be able to show a 10 story dragon fitting into a 10x10' doorway doesn't make sense. 

So here I am disagreeing with everyone again...
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Deathworks

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Re: This is a fantastic game but it's time to get with the future!
« Reply #38 on: November 12, 2012, 02:04:34 pm »

Hello Damiac!

The way I see it, there were actually two starting points for this thread:

1. Going 3D graphics

2. Going main stream/commercial.

Personally, I am thankful that Toady One stays true to his vision and does not go main stream or sell out his game to, for instance, EA. A lot of the aspects we have in the game would probably be curbed in that change. For instance, the sheer amount of detail the player is confronted with is probably something the marketing specialist would consider a problem, so that a decrease in detail/complexity is likely to happen, in order to make the game "user-friendly". Then there is the connecting to content from popular franchises of the same corporation and things targetting special interest groups. Worse, you may also find the deactivation/removal of features so they can be sold as separate upgrade kits...

And if the target audience is to be anything other than 18+ then you would see so much censorship and cleansing that you would probably not recognize the game at all...

As for the 3D graphics, my personal preference again lies on the opposite side of the fence, Damiac. I enjoy the current graphics a lot. In fact, I got used to the stretched ASCII tiles, so I am using a stretched curses set in order to ensure that the game does not make the tiles square (a few versions ago, it stopped allowing me to enjoy the stretched look by simply setting things in the init files). For me, 3D graphics are usually rather ugly, especially if they are (pseudo-) realistic. I don't want to see reality when I am playing such a game. Of course, if the 3D graphics were in the style of my avatar, the aesthetic point may be not so big a problem for me... :) :) :) :)

However, I also find 3D graphics in games to be very difficult to use. They easily confuse me, and make it very easy for me to miss important things. The old quarter view (I think stonesense uses that, right) is the most 3D I can deal with in any complex game. So, for me, 3D graphics would make the game unplayable, which is why I am not in favor of it.

Yours,
Deathworks
« Last Edit: November 12, 2012, 02:17:25 pm by Deathworks »
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Damiac

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Re: This is a fantastic game but it's time to get with the future!
« Reply #39 on: November 12, 2012, 02:20:51 pm »

Oh dear god, anime style DF? Please no.

Yeah, I'm in complete agreement, going "commercial" just would take away from what DF is.

Like I said, 3D seems completely impractical, if not wholly impossible for DF.  I am just disagreeing with some arguments against it.
I can't even agree with the side I agree with...
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AutomataKittay

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Re: This is a fantastic game but it's time to get with the future!
« Reply #40 on: November 12, 2012, 02:21:38 pm »

Hmm. Nyan Nyan Fortress?
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Torchy

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Re: This is a fantastic game but it's time to get with the future!
« Reply #41 on: November 12, 2012, 04:13:37 pm »

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GreatWyrmGold

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Re: This is a fantastic game but it's time to get with the future!
« Reply #42 on: November 12, 2012, 06:13:09 pm »

Woah, missed that. Yeah, do basic research before commenting on a game.

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tolkafox

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Re: This is a fantastic game but it's time to get with the future!
« Reply #43 on: November 12, 2012, 10:31:34 pm »

I happen to recall in skyrim where a dragon had some weird clipping issue upon landing which resulted in an awkward sliding to pete know's where. This destroys games so badly.

My point is, graphics=good is so horribly, horribly false.

Besides, PETA would have a fit over the kittenpults, and the mainstream wouldn't like dwarven childcare.
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GoombaGeek

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Re: This is a fantastic game but it's time to get with the future!
« Reply #44 on: November 12, 2012, 10:35:45 pm »

Skyrim was pretty crappy overall. Maybe everyone thought the lightly snow-dusted mountains were super prettyful, except when you're looking at snow eight months of the year (October - May) it becomes REALLY BORING. And the world is just so pointless - maybe I haven't powergamed enough but it seems like there's nothing to do. Enchantments are worthless, you can cook food but no-one cares, and every fun quest is about three hours of plot in. No, I don't know why I like Adventure Mode. Maybe it's the lack of realistically rendered snow.
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