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Author Topic: This is a fantastic game but it's time to get with the future!  (Read 6822 times)

crazz2323

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This is a fantastic game but it's time to get with the future!
« on: November 11, 2012, 08:48:59 am »

Dwarf Fortress truly is a fantastic game and I tip my hat to the devs on its creation and the many years they have put into it. However, more and more I see modern/semi-modern graphical dwarf/mining/settlement type games coming out (that still have yet to hold a candle to DF) and it seems like a sign of things to come. For example, A Game of Dwarves, Gnomoria, and another one I cannot remember the name of in development that actually sounds closer to DF). If someone actually has the ability to put the pieces together and merge modern day graphics with the similar kind of complexity or Dwarf Fortress and a fluid GUI, they will have a hit and Bay 12 Games will be missing out.
 
I think it's time DF went 3D and were put out to the mainstream. People are hungry for a game like that, just look how successful Minecraft has become. 
The devs are missing out on a great almost "untapped", pun intended, opportunity here to really become a household name. As long as this game stays ASCII 2D with or without tile sets, it will never hit the mainstream and millions of people will never know its greatness. It's time to get with the future devs, you really are missing out on an a great opportunity here.
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Chessrook44

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Re: This is a fantastic game but it's time to get with the future!
« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2012, 08:52:45 am »

Great as the game is, it's the sheer complexity and difficulty that makes this game both loved, and currently not really viable for the mainstream like Minecraft, not to mention the bugs and the fact it's still in Alpha.

Maybe when it gets to Beta...
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AutomataKittay

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Re: This is a fantastic game but it's time to get with the future!
« Reply #2 on: November 11, 2012, 09:07:28 am »

There're stonesense as part of DFHack, that's the closest thing to 3D viewer for DF that I'm aware of :D

And no, people aren't hungry for DF, Minecraft succeed because it's not complicated, relatively, and is an building adventure game.

DF's never going to be mainstream, no matter how pretty it is or how good an interface it have. There're just too many things that can go wrong, too many options to learn and people don't always enjoy having a goal-less sandbox in the end.

I've seen too many people complain with games of relatively similar construction complexity about lack of plot and goals. What's next, making DF into a RTS MMO campagin?
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chewie

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Re: This is a fantastic game but it's time to get with the future!
« Reply #3 on: November 11, 2012, 09:10:07 am »

Read this.

To put it short: Toady (the one-man army* who's developing this game) isn't very interested in gaining huge amounts of money or in hitting the mainstream market, especially if it leads the game away from his vision. He also received several offers from many big studios over the years for the license of the game (which he all refused).

*To be correct, he also has a brother and a cat helping out in some non code-related things.
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Manveru Taurënér

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Re: This is a fantastic game but it's time to get with the future!
« Reply #4 on: November 11, 2012, 09:39:53 am »

Toady already tried 3D graphics with Slaves to Armok I and it slowed production down too much, heavily contributing to the project being scrapped afaik. I don't really care mch for 3D graphics anyhow, at least not until the rest of the game is fairly complete, so maybe in 10-15 years it might be an idea to try and implement, but before that no thanks.
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hermes

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Re: This is a fantastic game but it's time to get with the future!
« Reply #5 on: November 11, 2012, 09:54:37 am »

The current release is a perfect case in point against 3D.  Toady has, over several months, added goblin, elf, and dwarf procedurally generated settlements and procedurally generated trees that produce any kind of fruit and drop leaves (Skyrim don't do that).  This would take a professional team of dozens of developers... oh, I don't know, years to do.  I say years because it's never been done AFAIK on the current generation of games so I assume it's just too damn hard to make acceptable given popular expectations for 3D graphics.

The way I look at it.... imagine earth 10,000 years in the future and we have VR games indistinguishable from reality.  People would still make 8bit games and use ASCII because people will always find merit in the game mechanics.  3D or beyond that VR enable different mechanics, but therein lies the only difference to a game player.  In 10,000 years we won't care about graphics.
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OREOSOME

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Re: This is a fantastic game but it's time to get with the future!
« Reply #6 on: November 11, 2012, 09:57:06 am »

Long story short: If you want "User friendly GUI", leave now. It will Never happen.
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katana

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Re: This is a fantastic game but it's time to get with the future!
« Reply #7 on: November 11, 2012, 09:57:41 am »

Learn more about a game before you tell the people who make it what to do.

"devs"... Ha...
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crazz2323

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Re: This is a fantastic game but it's time to get with the future!
« Reply #8 on: November 11, 2012, 09:58:03 am »

Great reply's and kudo's to Toady for not selling out to the big game companies, they would just ruin it anyway! Look how complicated Civilization is, still not as complicated as DF I know, but it was able to be developed in a way that graphically portrayed the game and streamlined the GUI. Even if he is not in it for the money, I would think Toady would like to see more people appreciate and enjoy this great game. I know he is a one man army so it really isn't feasible unless he had a team but I guess one can only wish.

** Also, when I said Devs I meant Toady and brother, they are considered developers no?
« Last Edit: November 11, 2012, 10:04:28 am by crazz2323 »
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katana

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Re: This is a fantastic game but it's time to get with the future!
« Reply #9 on: November 11, 2012, 10:01:21 am »

It just seems like the equivalent of running into a room of scientists and saying "we should cure cancer now, okay?".
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Dae

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Re: This is a fantastic game but it's time to get with the future!
« Reply #10 on: November 11, 2012, 10:29:32 am »

Great reply's and kudo's to Toady for not selling out to the big game companies, they would just ruin it anyway! Look how complicated Civilization is, still not as complicated as DF I know, but it was able to be developed in a way that graphically portrayed the game and streamlined the GUI. Even if he is not in it for the money, I would think Toady would like to see more people appreciate and enjoy this great game. I know he is a one man army so it really isn't feasible unless he had a team but I guess one can only wish.

** Also, when I said Devs I meant Toady and brother, they are considered developers no?

There is absolutely no game out there that has the level of complexity of DF. It's as much a simulator as a game, and in fact these two often don't make for an easy game experience.
There are a lot of games like Gnomoria now because of Minecraft, yes, but not because Minecraft, or Gnomoria, is similar to DF.
Minecraft demonstrated the success an indie dev could receive nowadays. The digging and building of this success, combined with the fact that most game designers know of Dwarf Fortress, set people in the direction of using the same spirit for something that could be described as a mainstream attempt at DF.

Plus, when you think of digging, you think of dwarves, not necessarily DF. Dwarves existed before. A game about a dwarven colony will look like DF, since it's mostly a game about a dwarven colony.

But you shouldn't worry about other peoples getting ahead of Toady. The sheer complexity of it all would keep any developper at bay, or they will still be several years behind Toady. If they decided to cut off features so as to gain speed, they will ultimately have a game that will be less DF-ey than DF.

However, I too would like an API so we could set up our own graphics client. Maybe at some point it will be done. In the meantime, we have to respect Toady's choices and thank him for the gift he's crafting us.
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GreatWyrmGold

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Re: This is a fantastic game but it's time to get with the future!
« Reply #11 on: November 11, 2012, 10:37:45 am »

The way I look at it.... imagine earth 10,000 years in the future and we have VR games indistinguishable from reality.  People would still make 8bit games and use ASCII because people will always find merit in the game mechanics.  3D or beyond that VR enable different mechanics, but therein lies the only difference to a game player.  In 10,000 years we won't care about graphics.
You're optimistic. I would have thought we'd drive ourselves to extinction long before then.

Great reply's and kudo's to Toady for not selling out to the big game companies, they would just ruin it anyway! Look how complicated Civilization is, still not as complicated as DF I know, but it was able to be developed in a way that graphically portrayed the game and streamlined the GUI. Even if he is not in it for the money, I would think Toady would like to see more people appreciate and enjoy this great game. I know he is a one man army so it really isn't feasible unless he had a team but I guess one can only wish.

** Also, when I said Devs I meant Toady and brother, they are considered developers no?
To put it short: Toady (the one-man army* who's developing this game) isn't very interested in gaining huge amounts of money or in hitting the mainstream market, especially if it leads the game away from his vision.
Anyways, have you taken two seconds to think of the ramifications? Not only slower development, but a MASSIVE amount of work to make the transition. Tiles would need to be completely abolished, just think of all that happens in DF worlds (from goblins lashing infants out of their mothers' arms to starving dwarves butchering puppies to nakedness to the procedurally generated creatures to eyes rotting out to bloody waterfalls), even without the typical DF macabre humor. And don't get me started on FPS.

If Gnomoria and Minecraft and A Game of Dwarves want to be DF Lite, they're allowed to be. DF doesn't have to copy their business model, though.
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katana

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Re: This is a fantastic game but it's time to get with the future!
« Reply #12 on: November 11, 2012, 11:15:14 am »

Minecraft doesn't really have a business model, does it? It just got lucky.
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Tally

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Re: This is a fantastic game but it's time to get with the future!
« Reply #13 on: November 11, 2012, 12:08:22 pm »

Minecraft doesn't really have a business model, does it? It just got lucky.
Valve pointed out Minecraft to the general public in one of their blogs, and that got the game to really boom. It looked as if it was already on the slow track to success if Valve didn't step in, though.
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pivole

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Re: This is a fantastic game but it's time to get with the future!
« Reply #14 on: November 11, 2012, 12:28:21 pm »

Business aside, the people who play this game seem to enjoy it for its 'oh, good godde, what am I looking at and why is the game over?' factor. What drove me to the game was the stories I'd heard about it (and it's being free), and what kept me here is beating the ridiculous odds of failure due to incomprehension. Albeit only for a few hours at a time.

The future is not what the game, or the best part of the community, wants.
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