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Author Topic: Foreign weapons compared to native?  (Read 18720 times)

goblolo

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Foreign weapons compared to native?
« on: November 13, 2012, 07:37:31 am »

Is there any purpose of using foreign weapons?
I've read about uber killing whips, but it seems more like a bug for me and i'm gonna edit raws to balance it.
But what about other weapon types? Can someone give me explanation on the following questions:

1. Are picks cool? What if I rush-train a bunch of miners then give them armor and put into squad? will they grumble because mining is not a military skill?
2. Compare: 2hander, long sword, scimitar and dagger against short sword.
3. Compare: halberd and pike against spear.
4. Compare: Great axe/halberd against battle axe.
5. Compare: flail, maul, morningstar and scourge against war hammer.

and small stupid question: will dwarves hold shield among with multigrasp weapon?
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Gamerlord

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Re: Foreign weapons compared to native?
« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2012, 07:43:03 am »

1. hell yeah
2. 2hander good for choppin, dagger/short sword better at stabbin and i don' know about scimitars
3. halberd and pike have chop attack (i think)
4. great axe is BIG battle axe
5. no freakin idea

AutomataKittay

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Re: Foreign weapons compared to native?
« Reply #2 on: November 13, 2012, 07:46:52 am »

1. Yes, pick's actually the best native-made weapon. I don't know if they grumbles since I've not honestly bothered to check military thoughts on them.

2. Dagger stabs through armor pretty good, the rest I have no idea. I does get a lot of wounds from thieves of both kinds using daggers, even with tanks of steel.

3. No idea here, I've heard pikes are better, but I've never used them.

4. No idea.

5. Maul's apparently better, according to some others, but I've no personal experience here.
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nanomage

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Re: Foreign weapons compared to native?
« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2012, 10:52:08 am »

1. They'll grumble. They'll also never lead mining demonstration, though they'll spar with their picks.  Until they get novice wrestling from demonstrations they'll be considered recruits.
2. Twohander is unliftable. Long sword is a better short sword. Dagger stab can punch armor made of better metals due to extremely low contact area.
3. Pikes are better spears, but both are unliftable.
4. Great axe is unliftable too.
5. Mauls are unliftable and beside that useless. High contact area makes them alike pillows. Flails are better than maces due to higher velocity multiplier iirc, and morningstars punch through higher-tier armor due to low-contact area edged attack. IDK about scourges, but they are definitely not very powerfull.

As in vanilla, there's no weapon that can only be wielded two-handed by dwarves, so I don't know the answer for your last question.
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katana

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Re: Foreign weapons compared to native?
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2012, 10:57:26 am »

Is there any purpose of using foreign weapons?
I've read about uber killing whips, but it seems more like a bug for me and i'm gonna edit raws to balance it.
But what about other weapon types? Can someone give me explanation on the following questions:

1. Are picks cool? What if I rush-train a bunch of miners then give them armor and put into squad? will they grumble because mining is not a military skill?
2. Compare: 2hander, long sword, scimitar and dagger against short sword.
3. Compare: halberd and pike against spear.
4. Compare: Great axe/halberd against battle axe.
5. Compare: flail, maul, morningstar and scourge against war hammer.

and small stupid question: will dwarves hold shield among with multigrasp weapon?
Picks are one of the most dangerous weapons, especially early game where you're likely to have a higher level miner compared to your military/

Longswords are pretty good, and despite what the game says, can be wielded in one hand by dwarves. Daggers have extreme armor piercing ability, but don't penetrate very far. Scimitars are identical to swords. 2 handed swords would probably just be sword upgrades, although they're too large for vanilla dawrves.

The pike has the highest penetration ever. Might be good for stabbing through larger creature's armor.

Great axes and axes I haven't really seen much difference between in practice, but in theory the greataxe is a heavier but stronger version.

Scourges are messed up-powerful (unless something's changed) similarly to whips. They brutally murder anything living, and probably do damage to things that don't as well. Mauls suck, their contact area is too high. No experience with the other hammers.
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Caldfir

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Re: Foreign weapons compared to native?
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2012, 01:59:54 pm »

I can tell you that in adventure mode, a dwarf with a greataxe is viable, but not as good as a war axe.  I seemed to have trouble hitting things (though I don't know if that was due to weight, some kind of combat mechanic, or just my own perception skewing things).  Switching to a war axe seemed to do a lot better.  Adventure mode swords all seem pretty much the same. 

In general the only foreign items that have seemed worthwhile are scourges.  Whips sometimes do crazy damage, but scourges seem to do that plus have the added benefit of occasionally sending the opponent sailing through the air. 

Gotta be honest though, haven't bothered with training up squads of these in fort mode.  Always feels like a better option to just make a bunch of steel/candy stuff than rummage through a heap of copper/bronze. 
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knutor

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Re: Foreign weapons compared to native?
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2012, 03:04:28 pm »

Here is the habit I formed, when giving specific weapons to dwarfs.  Like artifact weapons, foreign ones, or anything. 

From within the uniform menu, I assign a specific shield, to force them to equip a shield, around the same time as the artifact weapon, this helps avoid a double equip on the same hand.  Whether the double equip on same hand hurts or not, I don't know, but I prefer to have them spread over two hands.  We just never know when a hand, might fall off.

I don't edit my raws to weaken whips.  I stick them into weapon traps.  Most all of the others, I melt down, since foreign items, within parenthesis, (items) do not count towards fortress wealth.
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AutomataKittay

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Re: Foreign weapons compared to native?
« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2012, 03:14:41 pm »

Here is the habit I formed, when giving specific weapons to dwarfs.  Like artifact weapons, foreign ones, or anything. 

From within the uniform menu, I assign a specific shield, to force them to equip a shield, around the same time as the artifact weapon, this helps avoid a double equip on the same hand.  Whether the double equip on same hand hurts or not, I don't know, but I prefer to have them spread over two hands.  We just never know when a hand, might fall off.

I don't edit my raws to weaken whips.  I stick them into weapon traps.  Most all of the others, I melt down, since foreign items, within parenthesis, (items) do not count towards fortress wealth.

Decorating them turns them into your stuff! Though mostly they're better turned into raw stock for something else.
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weenog

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Re: Foreign weapons compared to native?
« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2012, 03:16:15 pm »

Anecdotal evidence only, flails seem pretty badass.  I've seen a merely Competent macedwarf with a salvaged silver flail flip out and kill 7 trolls in 7 swings with one.  :o
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goblolo

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Re: Foreign weapons compared to native?
« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2012, 12:08:47 am »

2. Twohander is unliftable.

does unliftable mean that dorf wont use it at all or just move slowly with em?

an I think i'll do a bit more science on weapon research this weeked.
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i2amroy

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Re: Foreign weapons compared to native?
« Reply #10 on: November 14, 2012, 12:39:00 am »

2. Twohander is unliftable.
does unliftable mean that dorf wont use it at all or just move slowly with em?
It means they won't use them at all. Certain weapons have the [MINIMUM_SIZE:X] token set to higher then a dwarf's average size, preventing most dwarves from using them.
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nanomage

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Re: Foreign weapons compared to native?
« Reply #11 on: November 14, 2012, 03:53:47 am »

2. Twohander is unliftable.
does unliftable mean that dorf wont use it at all or just move slowly with em?
It means they won't use them at all. Certain weapons have the [MINIMUM_SIZE:X] token set to higher then a dwarf's average size, preventing most dwarves from using them.
Yeah, but actually all dwaves, not most. Real dwarf size is ignored when making checks, the average size in raws is the only thing that matters.
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Kellnaved

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Re: Foreign weapons compared to native?
« Reply #12 on: November 14, 2012, 07:38:50 am »

Quote
Yeah, but actually all dwaves, not most. Real dwarf size is ignored when making checks, the average size in raws is the only thing that matters.

Interesting, if true.
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Trif

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Re: Foreign weapons compared to native?
« Reply #13 on: November 14, 2012, 08:06:25 am »

Quote
Yeah, but actually all dwaves, not most. Real dwarf size is ignored when making checks, the average size in raws is the only thing that matters.

Interesting, if true.
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AutomataKittay

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Re: Foreign weapons compared to native?
« Reply #14 on: November 14, 2012, 08:11:40 am »

I think most weapons, outside of whip and scourge and flail aren't much good for fortress dwarves. Pick will do everything well and good, and even better in steel. Spear are better for deep peneration ( pikes are better, but not many dwarves can handle it ) against organic big creatures. Hammer bashes, which's good for undeads and stuff. Crossbow's good against everything that get hurt, or you just don't want to be near.

Granted, this' assuming someone's looking for maximumal efficiency, rather than flavor :D
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