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Generic leather

Animal-named leather

[Zucchini]

I've noticed some of the major mods (Masterwork, Genesis) trending toward making leather (and tanned items in general) generic, and I'm wondering if this is the general way most people are wanting to go.

Despite the fact that both of us are noobs at modding, my friend and I are currently working on our own somewhat extensive mod, and I'm trying to figure out how I want to implement the tanning part of it.  I'd appreciate advice/opinions to help tip us one way or the other.

Explaining a bit further, we're kinda torn over whether to go with the genericized route exemplified by Deon's [PRODUCT:100:1:SKIN_TANNED:NONE:CREATURE_MAT:ANIMAL:LEATHER] from Genesis (which produces generic "leather"), or stick with the vanilla form of [PRODUCT:100:1:SKIN_TANNED:NONE:GET_MATERIAL_FROM_REAGENT:A:TAN_MAT] (which produces the familiar cow leather, etc.).

We're torn for the what I imagine are the standard reasons most people might be: "giant elk bird leather gloves" is an annoyingly long name and makes the leather lists long and unwieldy (particularly as we add more creatures), but is flavorful and has character.

Convenience and streamlining versus quirky and interesting and very DF.  We could kinda go either way.

So.  What are your thoughts on the best way to go?  Technical advantages/disadvantages/problems?



(Edit: Added a little poll.)

[Lycaeon]

In short, there's a balance sought between interesting variety and gameplay ease. While dragonscale trousers does indeed sound cool, not many (well, at least me) are interested in scrolling through long lists of "rat leather" and "horse leather" items.

So the mod adds grades of leather, usually standard leather, tough leather, and unique leather (which is named after the creature), that also increase in toughness, with unique leather generally being the strongest.

This is done by skin and leather type in the material_definition_template file. For example:

SKIN_TEMPLATE:            [MATERIAL_REACTION_PRODUCT:TAN_MAT:CREATURE_MAT:ANIMAL:LEATHER]
SKIN_TOUGH_TEMPLATE: [MATERIAL_REACTION_PRODUCT:TAN_MAT:CREATURE_MAT:ANIMAL_TOUGH:LEATHER]
SKIN_BEAST_TEMPLATE:  [MATERIAL_REACTION_PRODUCT:TAN_MAT:LOCAL_CREATURE_MAT:LEATHER]

The first two switch the leather material to a generic type, while the last is in accordance with vanilla DF, leaving the leather named after the creature.

A generic creature is added for each of the first 2 types as a shortcut to define the product leather:

Code: [Select]

[CREATURE:ANIMAL]
  [NAME:::]
[ARENA_RESTRICTED]
[DOES_NOT_EXIST]
[USE_MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:SKIN:SKIN_TEMPLATE]
[USE_MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:LEATHER:LEATHER_TEMPLATE]   
[USE_MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:CHITIN:CHITIN_TEMPLATE]
[USE_MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:SILK:SILK_TEMPLATE]
[USE_MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:TANNED_CHITIN:TANNED_CHITIN_TEMPLATE]
[USE_MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:TANNED_TOUGH_CHITIN:TANNED_CHITIN_TOUGH_TEMPLATE]
[USE_MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:TANNED_BEAST_CHITIN:TANNED_CHITIN_BEAST_TEMPLATE]
[SELECT_MATERIAL:ALL]
[MULTIPLY_VALUE:2]

[CREATURE:ANIMAL_TOUGH]
[NAME:tough:tough:tough]
[ARENA_RESTRICTED]
[DOES_NOT_EXIST]
[USE_MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:SKIN:SKIN_TOUGH_TEMPLATE]
[USE_MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:LEATHER:LEATHER_TOUGH_TEMPLATE]
[USE_MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:CHITIN:CHITIN_TOUGH_TEMPLATE]
[USE_MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:TANNED_CHITIN:TANNED_CHITIN_TEMPLATE]
[USE_MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:TANNED_TOUGH_CHITIN:TANNED_CHITIN_TOUGH_TEMPLATE]
[USE_MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:TANNED_BEAST_CHITIN:TANNED_CHITIN_BEAST_TEMPLATE]
[SELECT_MATERIAL:ALL]
[MULTIPLY_VALUE:4]

And the product leather/chitin types are also defined in the material_template file.

You'll also need to add new STANDARD_MATERIAL templates in the b_detail_plan file (Ones that use the new skin templates, for example: [ADD_MATERIAL:SKIN:SKIN_TOUGH_TEMPLATE]) and change the materials used in your creature files accordingly.

[Zucchini]

Oh, hey, that's an awesome balance!  I like that -- retaining names for the exotics types.

And perhaps cat.

[Zucchini]

Can it be done without the workaround generic creature entries?  Does the game engine require every animal product, even a generic nonspecific one, reference a specific animal?  I notice Veok's mod, Meph's and Genesis's all use it, so I'm presuming that's for a very good reason, but just asking in case there's some other way that would work that could be explored.

(Sorry for the double post -- I got excited about that name solution, even though I'm sure it's old news for everyone else...  )

[Putnam]

You could go inorganic, but then it wouldn't be stockpiled properly.

[Deon]

I've decided to revert to animal-specific leather in the next version because it's easier than to make workarounds to make civs use leather at all. If there is just generic leather, the game assumes there's no access to animals with leather and does not generate leather armor at all. However I keep the tiered leather. I may also go with skins of different size, because it makes no sense that you can only sew one bag from a huge beast while ypu can do the same with a dog's leather.

[Zucchini]

Ugh... that's a pretty bad side effect. What is the workaround to get civs to use generic leather?

[Quietust]

You could go inorganic, but then it wouldn't be stockpiled properly.

If you knew it was a problem, why didn't you ever report it? I searched the bug tracker and couldn't find anything, so I added it just now; maybe it'll be fixed in a future version.

[Lycaeon]

I've decided to revert to animal-specific leather in the next version because it's easier than to make workarounds to make civs use leather at all. If there is just generic leather, the game assumes there's no access to animals with leather and does not generate leather armor at all.

Hmm...I haven't yet seen this problem in my own use of the generic leather mod, as both my home civ and others use clothing items made out of generic leather.

[Grimlocke]

I've decided to revert to animal-specific leather in the next version because it's easier than to make workarounds to make civs use leather at all. If there is just generic leather, the game assumes there's no access to animals with leather and does not generate leather armor at all. However I keep the tiered leather. I may also go with skins of different size, because it makes no sense that you can only sew one bag from a huge beast while ypu can do the same with a dog's leather.

Why not just add the generic leather to a mundane creature? add [PREFIX:NONE] and there you go, non-specific leather.

Or possibly you could modify the reaction product tag in the skin template. I know thats caused me some annoyance once with civs getting acces to materials they went supposed to due to that tag.

[Panthera Leo]

The generic leather (if you mod default skin material definition) would simplify things the game has to load.

I'd still stick with way the game handles it by default for two important causes.
1) Many creatures have value modifiers making their leather worth something of note.
2) It allows per creature detailing. Such as fixed temperatures, or special variations of leather to specific creatures.
3) It pears tanning down to two templates. The skin materiel template that flags something as a usable leather, and one generic template reaction.
( 4) You remove the sick fun of having goblin leather decorations if you mod a entity to allow butchering of sentient kills.)

If your offended by everything and it's dog's pup having a variation of leather? I believe you could always remove the following line from the skin material template:
[MATERIAL_REACTION_PRODUCT:TAN_MAT:LOCAL_CREATURE_MAT:LEATHER]
Then add that only to critters you want to be sinkable.

Edit: Something like:
[SELECT_MATERIAL:SKIN]
[MATERIAL_REACTION_PRODUCT:TAN_MAT:LOCAL_CREATURE_MAT:LEATHER]

[Zucchini]

I'd still stick with way the game handles it by default for two important causes.
1) Many creatures have value modifiers making their leather worth something of note.
2) It allows per creature detailing. Such as fixed temperatures, or special variations of leather to specific creatures.
3) It pears tanning down to two templates. The skin materiel template that flags something as a usable leather, and one generic template reaction.
( 4) You remove the sick fun of having goblin leather decorations if you mod a entity to allow butchering of sentient kills.)

The structure I've been working on is basically an enlargement on the other ones I've seen, mainly using the structure Deon used as a basis.  It would go in 5 or 6 tiers, making for 12 or so material templates -- or 24-30 (see below), something like this:

• Tier 1: SKIN_WEAK (small or thin-skinned animals)
• Tier 1A: SKIN_WEAK_FURRED (furry small or thin-skinned animals)
• Tier 2: SKIN (most mundane animals)
• Tier 3: SKIN_STRONG (elephants, rhinos, etc.)
• Tier 4: SKIN_MYTHICAL (FBs, fantastical animals that warrant it)
• Tier 5: SKIN_SPECIAL (sentients, cats, other special -- or sick and twisted -- cases)

These yield:

• Tier 1: suede (generic)
• Tier 1A: suede or fur (generic, choice of a fur reaction or a suede one)
• Tier 2: leather (generic)
• Tier 3: hide (named)
• Tier 4: hide (named -- mythical creatures class)
• Tier 5: skin (named -- as in "elf skin gloves")

This leaves a lot of the more interesting creatures specifically-named and working as in vanilla by default.  It simplifies things (hopefully) at the user level, and in terms of what the game tracks, but obviously is a lot more complex in the raws.  More infrastructure and creature-raw-editing than just using the stock skin and leather templates, but then it allows for more fine-tuned naming (hide sounds better than leather for a lot of animals).  And it retains the sick joy of elf, goblin and cat skin leather.

As for genericized leathers losing the animal-value variations... yeah, the structure above doesn't handle that, and that's not so good.

I suppose a good compromise could be dividing the lower, genericized tiers of leather into 3 sub-tiers each (1x value, 2x value, 4x value, or whatever).  Possibly making the most valuable lower-tier animal leathers named again (ermine fur coat, mink fur gloves, giant bat leather, etc.).  This would, again, make for more raw complexity and a few more entries in the stocks menus, but, hey, we're used to hundreds of useless entries, many with apparent identical names, so 5-10 more won't, I hope, really have that disruptive workaroundness that workarounds often have.

I've decided to revert to animal-specific leather in the next version because it's easier than to make workarounds to make civs use leather at all. If there is just generic leather, the game assumes there's no access to animals with leather and does not generate leather armor at all.

Hmm...I haven't yet seen this problem in my own use of the generic leather mod, as both my home civ and others use clothing items made out of generic leather.

Veok's?

Why not just add the generic leather to a mundane creature? add [PREFIX:NONE] and there you go, non-specific leather.

Does this work? Is there any disadvantage?  Sounds great if it does.

Or possibly you could modify the reaction product tag in the skin template. I know thats caused me some annoyance once with civs getting acces to materials they went supposed to due to that tag.

I don't understand this part very well...  could you explain that a bit further?

[Panthera Leo]

How are you going separate "this hide" belongs this sub-group?

That is, how are you going to sort out how to use what type of leather to use when it's a mystical creature and not a cow?

And it retains the sick joy of elf, goblin and cat skin leather.

Also, The elves leave me alone mostly, and I return the favor. I just get a kick out of posting warnings "this is what's going to happen to you if you step on my doorstep unwelcomed", and watching them coming anyway.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TooDumbToLive

[Zucchini]

How are you going separate "this hide" belongs this sub-group?

That is, how are you going to sort out how to use what type of leather to use when it's a mystical creature and not a cow?

Reading your post again, I think I may have misinterpreted.  Do you mean in the reactions, like during play?  I suspect my original answer missed the mark.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Different body detail plans and tissue templates to go along with the new skin material templates (again, taken from Deon's method).

So all thin-skinned animals get SKIN_WEAK body template.  All sentients get SKIN_SPECIAL, which has weak skin's stats but allows for named leather.  And so on.  I'm just learning how to implement this all, so I'm not yet aware of all the pitfalls or gotchas.

(irrelevant blahblah mercifully deleted)

[Grimlocke]

Why not just add the generic leather to a mundane creature? add [PREFIX:NONE] and there you go, non-specific leather.

Does this work? Is there any disadvantage?  Sounds great if it does.

The names just comes out as 'leather' or whatever you choose to call it. If added to a cat, horse, or other annimals civs allways seem to get from somewhere they will at least have some of the leather. Whether or not the game makes the link between other annimals yielding that same leather and adding it to the civs stockpile, I wouldnt know for certain. You may want to run around as advanturer in a few towns, see if the numbers are in the right proportions.