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Author Topic: How's your generation doing?  (Read 30838 times)

Truean

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Re: How's your generation doing?
« Reply #345 on: March 10, 2015, 07:06:14 pm »

I dunno. Makes me sad.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2015, 07:51:02 pm by Truean »
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Reelya

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Re: How's your generation doing?
« Reply #346 on: March 10, 2015, 08:10:31 pm »

Well if they're seriously worried you'll steal corporate secrets, you should be in a 6-figure salary job anyway and dealing with sensitive information.

Truean, what you wrote makes me think of the sandwich shop non-compete agreements which prevent you steal corporate sandwich-making secrets and taking them to e.g. Subways, or from opening your own diner.

penguinofhonor

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Re: How's your generation doing?
« Reply #347 on: March 10, 2015, 08:50:37 pm »

.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2015, 05:28:04 pm by penguinofhonor »
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Truean

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Re: How's your generation doing?
« Reply #348 on: March 10, 2015, 09:52:18 pm »

Maybe if you're selling a business or something. I dunno. It's complex.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2015, 07:48:41 pm by Truean »
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The kinda human wreckage that you love

Current Spare Time Fiction Project: (C) 2010 http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=63660.0
Disclaimer: I never take cases online for ethical reasons. If you require an attorney; you need to find one licensed to practice in your jurisdiction. Never take anything online as legal advice, because each case is different and one size does not fit all. Wants nothing at all to do with law.

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Helgoland

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Re: How's your generation doing?
« Reply #349 on: March 10, 2015, 10:53:52 pm »

-snip-
To be fair, I didn't click that link, but I might have a story that's of interest:

My one sister's SO works at a wheel manufacturing factory in some kind of fairly-technical-but-fairly-important-but-not-really-management position. Great guy, he is, and an even better handyman. Fixed my parents' central heating after three different contractors had failed at the task.
Anyway, his company once tried expanding to the US by building a new factory there. Of course they had to buy some parts locally (which weren't cutting edge in any sort of way, and neither were the American contractors, but that's another story and it might be a regional thing), but more importantly, they had to hire local workers.
And that was a problem.
A fucking huge problem, actually. In Europe, you have a kind of loyalty to your company: When they hire you (at least if you're a somewhat skilled worker), you expect to work there for a couple of years and not be fired for some bullshit reason, and on the other hand the company expects you to not run off for $.10 an hour more at some other company.
Accordding to him, though, that's exactly what happened there: They couldn't find experienced workers for their plant, so they started training the guys they hired. And as soon as they'd gotten a little bit of training, as soon as the company had made an investment in them, they ran off to other companies. The plant got into all sorts of troubles, and it took them more than half a decade to adopt to the very, very different employment culture oín the US.

So I wouldn't really blame those guys if they required a signature on a non-compete agreement (I don't know if they did). These things have their place, at least in some niches.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2015, 11:53:47 pm by Helgoland »
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Truean

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Re: How's your generation doing?
« Reply #350 on: March 10, 2015, 11:38:16 pm »

If they want employee loyalty, they could give job security and maybe even pay a lil better? Especially the job security seems like a two way street.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2015, 07:45:57 pm by Truean »
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Current Spare Time Fiction Project: (C) 2010 http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=63660.0
Disclaimer: I never take cases online for ethical reasons. If you require an attorney; you need to find one licensed to practice in your jurisdiction. Never take anything online as legal advice, because each case is different and one size does not fit all. Wants nothing at all to do with law.

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Helgoland

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Re: How's your generation doing?
« Reply #351 on: March 10, 2015, 11:42:25 pm »

$.10 might be an exaggeration, but the point remains: Their company paid for their training, and some other benefit reaped the benefits. Matching the wage increase won't do anything, since the other company already has a competetive edge by not having paid for that training.

Sure, these contracts need to be regulated - tightly regulated - but what should 'certain circumstances' be, if not this? You're essentially condemning companies to training employees for free, at least in this instance.
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Zanzetkuken The Great

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Re: How's your generation doing?
« Reply #352 on: March 10, 2015, 11:43:47 pm »

Quote from: Truean

Admittedly, it is a pretty dick move to run off near as soon as training is completed.
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Truean

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Re: How's your generation doing?
« Reply #353 on: March 10, 2015, 11:49:48 pm »

Sandwich making... Sandwich making? Do you realize how that sounds? Bread or bun and things inside it. That's a "company secret" or "trade secret?" Because they've never made a sandwich before? Do you realize how that sounds?
« Last Edit: March 14, 2015, 07:41:13 pm by Truean »
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Current Spare Time Fiction Project: (C) 2010 http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=63660.0
Disclaimer: I never take cases online for ethical reasons. If you require an attorney; you need to find one licensed to practice in your jurisdiction. Never take anything online as legal advice, because each case is different and one size does not fit all. Wants nothing at all to do with law.

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Zanzetkuken The Great

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Re: How's your generation doing?
« Reply #354 on: March 10, 2015, 11:57:44 pm »

Quote from: Truean

I was only using the quote to display whom I was talking to, as I am now in case of ninja's.  Removed everything else, including the link, from it.

And I was referring to the company the Helgoland spoke about, not Jimmy John's.  They wouldn't have brought the contracts in if the employees weren't immediately leaving after being trained.  Isn't that a bit more reasonable?
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Helgoland

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Re: How's your generation doing?
« Reply #355 on: March 11, 2015, 12:04:22 am »

Fuck, didn't remember the no quoting thing. Not entirely sober right now... Fixed it, anyway.

Training expense is minimal? Maybe in the jobs you're thinking of, but certainly not in general. And 'unable to work for two years' is not true either: Those were people they'd've kept on for at the very least that timespan, and almost certainly longer (surely that, or some other provision strengthening the workers' position, could be included in those contracts, if deemed necessary). I'll throw the 'reflexevely quoting' right back at you: I never said you didn't lay out what 'certain circumstances' should include, I just claimed your set of circumstances wasn't wide enough.

And in case you didn't notice: I agree with you on the sandwich thing. Regulation is necessary (I'm European, this sentence is practically part of my gospel :P ) But making cars (and most car parts, really) is a wee bit more complicated than throwing together a couple vegetables and calling it a sandwich. The way the economy works has changed, and the laws and customs regarding contracts need to change with it. Demanding contract law should stay the way it was in the fifties because those were the golden times economically is, uh, missing the adjective here. Maybe I'll put it when sober :D

Ninja: I don't know if they even used such contracts, and I'm fairly fuzzy on the details - all I'm saying is that it seemed like an instance where using such contracts would be justified.
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SalmonGod

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Re: How's your generation doing?
« Reply #356 on: March 11, 2015, 12:19:18 am »

Helgoland: 

There is not a culture of company loyalty among workers in the U.S.  It's true.  But there's good reason for it.  The vast majority of us understand that we're being shafted hardcore, and whatever personal benefit we can reap at the employer's expense is fair game. 

The amount that workers here are compensated in relation to the profit they make their employer is degrading.  When I worked at Fedex, my manager worked out the numbers and determined that it took me less than two weeks to make my entire year's pay for the company.  Big businesses continue reporting record-breaking profits year after year after year, but at the same time tell everyone they have to slash benefits to make ends meet. 

The workplace culture that's inflicted on employees continues to also get more degrading, where in many offices employees are monitored like they're in a prison and every minute of their time scrutinized to see if they're squeezing out every cent possible.  I've had to literally keep logs detailing what I did with every single minute of my time.  And in my current workplace, people have been chewed out for hours and their work habits investigated for mistakes that cost the company as little as $20.

And job security in the U.S. is a distant memory.  A growing number of states have absolutely zero protections for workers, to the point that you can show up to work one day to find all your stuff boxed up and told that you're fired and you'll never know what the reason was.  In other words, they're laying you off but not calling it as such because that's bad PR and legal complication, so they're calling it a firing but aren't required to provide justification that you can potentially contest.  I know people this has happened to.

So yeah... there's no culture of loyalty here, because our employers make it abundantly clear that we can't expect it from them.  On the other hand, a good boss is actually capable of earning fierce loyalty from employees in this country, because they're so very rare.
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Frumple

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Re: How's your generation doing?
« Reply #357 on: March 11, 2015, 12:25:19 am »

... of course, to a fair extent, the message here is "Read your contract, and don't sign away things you shouldn't." Non-compete clauses on low level jobs would dry up pretty fast if everyone that saw one in their contract said, "No." Which they, y'know... should be? Don't, obviously, but still.

Though, sadly enough, the methodologies behind sandwich making actually can be a notable trade secret. Order of construction, layout of rooms, particular variations in materials, various corp-standard customer interaction bits... the list kinda' goes on, and they're all things that can substantially impact profit margin over the course of a business's life, especially for chains. There is a fair amount of bullshit going on, but it's far from entirely so, and a competing business being able to cheerfully acquire the fruits of the (often disturbingly substantial) research that goes in to refining that sort of thing just because they managed to snatch up a previous employee...

... it's like, personally, I'm kinda' okay with corporate espionage of pretty much all (non-violent) sorts -- whatever spreads efficient and/or effective methodology the furthest is more or less what I want to see, and if some big wigs lose some portion of their profit margin because of it, I don't entirely care. Being marginally less rich isn't exactly a hardship. But I can definitely understand why businesses would be protective of stuff they've often sunk thousands behind the scenes into developing. Making several hundred sandwiches per day is not just throwing some stuff between two slices of bread and calling it an afternoon. If your company has figured something out that shaves a second or a half-penny or something off each sandwich, you've got a pretty damned significant competitive edge that you actually do kinda' want to hold on to. And never mind more obviously complicated industries.

Though to be clear, I wouldn't exactly complain if there was regulation implemented to curtail particularly predatory employment contracts. Just noting that it's pretty understandable why a company -- particularly a larger one, that has a hefty amount of time and/or research sunk into its methodologies -- would want to keep people it has trained out of similar fields. They've got a lot riding on what your average outsider might consider to be inconsequential things. And that they've reached the point where they apparently see the need to contractually ensure their former employees immediately spill every competitive edge they have to competing businesses is telling in its own way...

---

Though yeah, @ Helg: It's actually pretty rare from my understanding that small wage differentials are enough to cause immediate ship-jump like what you're describing. I can almost guarantee you there was either a significant wage difference or something else going on -- extra benefits, different work environment, etc. Little benefits are usually not enough to cause people to take on the risks that are involved with that kind of rapid job change.

Mind you, SG's points are also spot on.
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Helgoland

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Re: How's your generation doing?
« Reply #358 on: March 11, 2015, 12:28:12 am »

SG: Well sure, that's why that company took so long to adapt to American mores - I'm sure that nowadays they're shafting their employees like any good American capitalist :P

Turning this around, the thing that nowadays is a non-compete agreement could - perhaps, if previous experience proves unable to predict the future - turn into an instrument of employee protection: By agreeing to stay with the employer for a certain amount of time, or at least not working in the field anywhere else, they might be able to get a greater degree of job security in return, at least if they're people who can't be replaced immediately. Maybe it's really true that the ol' US of A simply does not get along with the - admittedly rather European-feeling - concept of unions, and you guys need to find a more individualist system for getting more job security...

Frumple: I only heard the European side of the story, of course. No doubt there's another side as well.
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I'm going to do the smart thing here and disengage. This isn't a hill I paticularly care to die on.

Reelya

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Re: How's your generation doing?
« Reply #359 on: March 11, 2015, 12:51:55 am »

$.10 might be an exaggeration, but the point remains: Their company paid for their training, and some other benefit reaped the benefits. Matching the wage increase won't do anything, since the other company already has a competetive edge by not having paid for that training.

Sure, these contracts need to be regulated - tightly regulated - but what should 'certain circumstances' be, if not this? You're essentially condemning companies to training employees for free, at least in this instance.

They don't need a non-compete agreement, they need a contract plain and simple: we train you, you work for us for at least ~2 years.
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