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Author Topic: Cataclysm: Dark Days Ahead - A roaming horde appears on the horizon!  (Read 1407676 times)

Kaitol

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Re: Cataclysm: Dark Days Ahead - A roaming horde appears on the horizon!
« Reply #12705 on: August 02, 2014, 09:07:27 pm »

... I think someone has been playing too many videogames.

The effective range of buckshot is around 40 meters more or less, not twenty feet; it will also have a rough spread of only around 8 inches at that distance. It's accuracy up to that distance is also just about as good as a rifles. While they are something of a specialty weapon militarily, the US Marines in particular make use of them regularly, and the general army is quick to bring them out in urban environments. The trench guns of World War 1 also stand out in particular, along with their use in jungle warfare in later conflicts. And what it lacks in penetration, it generally makes up in stopping power. A shotgun blast is likely to stagger or drop someone, even if they're wearing armor that does manage to stop the shot, imagine you just got hit by the fist of a man roughly the size of an elephant. On top of that, full heavy body armor that covers one from head to toe that might shield you enough from the kinetic force to keep you up is extremely expensive and rare, as well as very cumbersome.

And thats not even getting into specialty ammo and barrels. With a rifled barrel and sabot slugs you can hit accurately at ranges greater than 100 meters, with a bullet with far greater grain than a normal rifle. For comparison, a 7.62 rifle round (a fairly large rifle round as it were, praised for its stopping power) comes out at roughly 150 grains. The standard 12 gauge slug comes out at 432 grains. thats nearly three times the mass. A sabot slug would be slightly smaller, but due to the increased velocity and spin, would have increased penetration as well.
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NullForceOmega

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Re: Cataclysm: Dark Days Ahead - A roaming horde appears on the horizon!
« Reply #12706 on: August 02, 2014, 09:31:15 pm »

... I think someone has been on google.

It is amusing to me that you would indicate that I have been playing too many videogames when said videogames are the primary reason I feel so strongly about this particular weapon.  Almost every single videogame I have ever seen or played tries to depict the shotgun as a 'god weapon', providing this rather effective hunting tool with attributes that fly in the face of reality, and mysteriously turn it into an armor-bypassing, insta-gibbing, two shots and everything is dead weapon.  Shotguns are very poor weapons.  period, end of statement, full stop.  Your argument literally proves my point for me, without special munitions ( sabot, slugs, flechettes, magnum cartridges) or modifications (chokes, barrel lengtheners, sawn off, etc.), the shotgun is not an effective weapon.  And you don't need full body armor to survive it, standard police issue kevlar vest without inserts has very high survivability, with deaths in single to double digits annualy.  I'll leave this now, as I am not going to spend several days sorting through statistics, charts, diagrams, and other media to illustrate this point further.
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Cheedows

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Re: Cataclysm: Dark Days Ahead - A roaming horde appears on the horizon!
« Reply #12707 on: August 02, 2014, 09:46:44 pm »

Calling it a terrible weapon is not terribly accurate either, since in real life it does have civilian uses. The police are known to use shotguns because they do not penetrate walls unlike other higher grade rifles, which minimizes the risk for civilian casualties.
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n9103

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Re: Cataclysm: Dark Days Ahead - A roaming horde appears on the horizon!
« Reply #12708 on: August 02, 2014, 09:55:32 pm »

... If you're trying to go into combat, or any situation other than home defense, and you don't have slugs or a choke, you're a friggin noob.

Both slugs and chokes are almost as common as the shotgun itself, with many/most shotguns being sold with a choke of some type.
At point blank, no vest will stand up to slugs. Even Type IIIA (that's typical SWAT level level armor) can be penetrated by buckshot as well, though probably not lethally, when multiple shots to a central location are dealt with.

Kaitol

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Re: Cataclysm: Dark Days Ahead - A roaming horde appears on the horizon!
« Reply #12709 on: August 02, 2014, 10:34:44 pm »

It is amusing to me that you would indicate that I have been playing too many videogames when said videogames are the primary reason I feel so strongly about this particular weapon. Almost every single videogame I have ever seen or played tries to depict the shotgun as a 'god weapon', providing this rather effective hunting tool with attributes that fly in the face of reality, and mysteriously turn it into an armor-bypassing, insta-gibbing, two shots and everything is dead weapon.
Which is exactly why I said you played too many videogames, thus proving my point. Your irrational hate of how video games portrays them has clearly colored your views and leads you to discredit any valid arguments contrary to said views.

The fact that both of your arguments conveniently avoid the fact that you have stated blatantly wrong statistics, tends to take the weight out of your arguments. You stated buckshot has a range of twenty feet, when it's actually around 120 feet. This is such a blatant disconnect, that any other statistics you give are suspect as well. I have actually fired shotguns, I can attest that their range is well, well beyond twenty feet, even with a 410. That is also why I said you had played too many videogames, because many display shotguns as incapable of doing anything beyond twenty feet or so. It's fairly clear where you pulled that number from.

Every single argument you have presented has also been given with the caveat of other ammo types as well as tools that modify the weapon itself. Might I point out, that the majority of a rifled weapons usefulness comes from sights, stocks, and magazines? And that without those, it's usefulness would drop drastically. A stock civilian grade semi-automatic assault rifle with only civilian grade ammo... would be just as poor a weapon.

Here's a bit of military trivia for you:  Why, if shotguns are mans most perfect tool, doesn't the Army issue them to every soldier?

When did I ever say they were? Your exaggerated attempts to put words in my mouth that I never said is puzzling. Your somewhat hostile tone throughout is just as puzzling, and also does you no credit.

However, seeing as this is teetering on the edge of devolving from a discussion about the merits and capabilities and limits of shotguns, I will digress from further comment as well. You have your views, and I will never be able to change them. And I have stated all I can about the capabilities of shotguns.
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Aseaheru

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Re: Cataclysm: Dark Days Ahead - A roaming horde appears on the horizon!
« Reply #12710 on: August 02, 2014, 10:44:50 pm »

Shotguns might be one of the more versatile weapons though.
I mean, look at all those ammo choices.
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IcyTea31

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Re: Cataclysm: Dark Days Ahead - A roaming horde appears on the horizon!
« Reply #12711 on: August 02, 2014, 11:15:22 pm »

What a derail. Let me help.

In real life, police often fire shotguns at locks and hinges to open doors. Why can't we do that in Cataclysm? Sure, it would be impractically noisy compared to just smashing it down, but in my opinion, well worth it in those few cases I'd actually do it.
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Darkmere

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Re: Cataclysm: Dark Days Ahead - A roaming horde appears on the horizon!
« Reply #12712 on: August 02, 2014, 11:28:43 pm »

Can anyone spare a moment to tell me the necessary components to a solar charging station? I just want a simple temporary platform that charges storage batteries so I can power up an indoor floodlight. Seems it requires more than a frame, solar panel, and battery these days...
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And then, they will be weaponized. Like everything in this game, from kittens to babies, everything is a potential device of murder.
So if baseless speculation is all we have, we might as well treat it like fact.

IcyTea31

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Re: Cataclysm: Dark Days Ahead - A roaming horde appears on the horizon!
« Reply #12713 on: August 02, 2014, 11:31:38 pm »

I have no idea, but the required components should be in the install menu on the "vehicle", for any such vehicle part.
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Darkmere

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Re: Cataclysm: Dark Days Ahead - A roaming horde appears on the horizon!
« Reply #12714 on: August 02, 2014, 11:43:20 pm »

Ah yeah, I meant, I have just a frame with a solar panel and storage battery mounted to it and even after a few rare sunny days the battery's still at 0%. Was wondering if there was a new component I missed since I played last.
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And then, they will be weaponized. Like everything in this game, from kittens to babies, everything is a potential device of murder.
So if baseless speculation is all we have, we might as well treat it like fact.

Descan

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Re: Cataclysm: Dark Days Ahead - A roaming horde appears on the horizon!
« Reply #12715 on: August 03, 2014, 12:54:06 am »

... maybe it needs controls for whatever reason? To "turn it on"? Couldn't hurt to try, unless someone more knowledgeable comes about.
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Blaze

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Re: Cataclysm: Dark Days Ahead - A roaming horde appears on the horizon!
« Reply #12716 on: August 03, 2014, 01:05:08 am »

Is it indoors or underground?
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Aseaheru

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Re: Cataclysm: Dark Days Ahead - A roaming horde appears on the horizon!
« Reply #12717 on: August 03, 2014, 01:07:22 am »

Or under a roof?
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Darkmere

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Re: Cataclysm: Dark Days Ahead - A roaming horde appears on the horizon!
« Reply #12718 on: August 03, 2014, 01:35:12 am »

Nope, it's right outside, in the sun, between my base and the adjacent river.
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And then, they will be weaponized. Like everything in this game, from kittens to babies, everything is a potential device of murder.
So if baseless speculation is all we have, we might as well treat it like fact.

Micro102

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Re: Cataclysm: Dark Days Ahead - A roaming horde appears on the horizon!
« Reply #12719 on: August 03, 2014, 02:54:08 am »

Sure it's a solar panel and not a solar cell?

Are the solar panel and battery on the same tile? If so maybe giving them their own frames, or vice versa?

Do you need a specific type of battery?

When looking at a car, the roof is on the same tile as a seat. Does the game maybe read one as "above" the other, making your solar panel underneath the frame?
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