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Author Topic: Iron Testament - an ancient "open world roguelike" (pre-alpha)  (Read 44876 times)

lemmily

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Re: Iron Testament - an ancient "open world roguelike" (pre-alpha)
« Reply #30 on: February 04, 2013, 09:16:39 am »


The "Beliefs" column reflects this, where the format is <belief (uncertainty)>.
I'm not sure what you mean by this. Is the number their believed cost of an item, and then the bracketed number how far they would deviate from that number when purchasing & selling?


When will there be a public release to play around with?

Also I really do love the map colours. Well done on that front!


(also, PTW)
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Clownmite

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Re: Iron Testament - an ancient "open world roguelike" (pre-alpha)
« Reply #31 on: February 04, 2013, 06:25:04 pm »

Is consumption and the like also modeled?  If I used my dungeoneering profits to divert food away from a town and into my private storehouse, would there be starvation, and would I be able to gouge the good people for essential goods?

That's the plan. Right now every economic agent needs food to work, and won't work if they can't eat. Currently, a food shortage will drive up the price of food (that's the case with every resource) and any product which requires food to make, which is, well, everything. There's no starvation modeled yet, since I'm not sure how to do it. Since there will be a much bigger population in a city than there are economic agents participating in the economy, I'm not quite sure what to do. First off, I need to determine exactly what one unit of "food" is, and secondly, I need to map this onto the general population. I'm thinking there will be a granary where surplus food is automatically stored (maybe the government pays the farmers a little bit for it), and then other agents can draw from this for free when there's a food shortage. Once the granary runs out and there's no more food in the economy, then things can get interesting. Ideally there will be lots of people turning into bandits, emigration from the city, revolts, and anarchy. Sieging cities to starve them out will be a definite option and can lead to many interesting things.

The "Beliefs" column reflects this, where the format is <belief (uncertainty)>.
I'm not sure what you mean by this. Is the number their believed cost of an item, and then the bracketed number how far they would deviate from that number when purchasing & selling?

Yeah, that's pretty much it. They believe that they can get the good if they offer somewhere in the range of belief+-uncertainty. As they make more successful trades, they adjust the price and lower the uncertainty, and vice versa for unsuccessful trades.
It's slightly confusing for 2 reasons:
1) an agent will never sell a good for less than it costs to make (so their belief may be pretty low, but they'll check what it cost them to make multiplied by a profit margin and won't go any lower than that)
2) When an agent makes a bid or an offer to sell, they are matched up with potential buyers/sellers and meet each other in the middle for price. The highest bidder is matched with the lowest seller, and so on, so a buyer's price belief is generally higher, and the seller's belief generally lower, than what the goods end up going for. It sounds weird, but it works.

As for a public release, I'm not too sure. This is definitely a hobby project, but I've had more time lately to work on it. There's one last major bug I can't track down with the economy and caravans. Once I fix that, I need to do some long-term testing to make sure the economies are sustainable (they are in my isolated testing, but I'm not sure about in the game world with goods going around in caravans and stuff). After that, I want to do more work on armies and governments, so that there will be a minimum of interesting things going on for a player. Once that's done I'd like to release a tech demo/alpha thing. I'm hoping to make the economy pretty easy to mod in, so I'd like to get people to play around with adding different resources and see how it results.

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GreatWyrmGold

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Re: Iron Testament - an ancient "open world roguelike" (pre-alpha)
« Reply #32 on: February 04, 2013, 08:54:47 pm »

Is it an interesting bug?
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Clownmite

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Re: Iron Testament - an ancient "open world roguelike" (pre-alpha)
« Reply #33 on: February 04, 2013, 09:28:37 pm »

Is it an interesting bug?

Haha, not this one. The last one I dealt with was though: Blacksmiths were assuming that since their tools weren't selling, the price they posted was too high, so they lowered it, and lowered it, until it was negative. The current bug is that: I add caravans to a list when they're created, and move them to another list when they enter a town - but the game is claiming they were never in the first list to begin with, even though the only way they could have gotten to the town was by being a member of the first list...
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GreatWyrmGold

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Re: Iron Testament - an ancient "open world roguelike" (pre-alpha)
« Reply #34 on: February 05, 2013, 07:54:57 pm »

Is it an interesting bug?
Haha, not this one. The last one I dealt with was though: Blacksmiths were assuming that since their tools weren't selling, the price they posted was too high, so they lowered it, and lowered it, until it was negative.
That is amusing. Would people exploit the negative prices to gain a bunch of tools AND coin?

Quote
The current bug is that: I add caravans to a list when they're created, and move them to another list when they enter a town - but the game is claiming they were never in the first list to begin with, even though the only way they could have gotten to the town was by being a member of the first list...
That's...interesting.
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Clownmite

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Re: Iron Testament - an ancient "open world roguelike" (pre-alpha)
« Reply #35 on: February 05, 2013, 11:42:12 pm »

That is amusing. Would people exploit the negative prices to gain a bunch of tools AND coin?
I didn't even realize there was a bug at all because before they placed an offer to sell at the negative price, they checked the production cost + a profit margin and used that as the offer price. But when I added the info about each individual agent to the city, I was scratching my head why the belief was negative but the economy was still functioning.

That's...interesting.
Yeah, the thing about programming is that the computer does exactly what you tell it to do - and it's easy to assume your interpretation of what you're telling the computer to do is what you're actually telling it to do (which is often 2 separate things). In this case, I was telling the caravan to add itself to a list of caravans on the city it was buying goods from, but telling it to remove itself from the city it was selling goods to. I'm glad I finally fixed it. Along the way I also fixed another major bug that was causing any unit created on the worldmap to skip up to a month of time before it started moving - I didn't even notice this was a problem until I couldn't figure out why my caravans were waiting so long to move.

It looks like the economy is still having some trouble functioning 100% correctly in the actual game with goods moving around, so I need to do some more testing there before I move on to other things.
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MaximumZero

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Re: Iron Testament - an ancient "open world roguelike" (pre-alpha)
« Reply #36 on: February 06, 2013, 02:06:20 am »

I am watching this thread with bated breath.
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Gamerlord

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Re: Iron Testament - an ancient "open world roguelike" (pre-alpha)
« Reply #37 on: February 06, 2013, 12:15:10 pm »

Definitely watching this.

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GreatWyrmGold

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Re: Iron Testament - an ancient "open world roguelike" (pre-alpha)
« Reply #39 on: February 06, 2013, 07:30:14 pm »

That's a more amusing glitch.
May all your bugs be hilarious and easy to fix.
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Clownmite

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Re: Iron Testament - an ancient "open world roguelike" (pre-alpha)
« Reply #40 on: February 08, 2013, 11:42:01 pm »

Thanks for the kind words so far everybody. I honestly didn't expect this to get much attention.

Right now I'm still trying to figure out how town stockpiles will work. Does the government control most of the resource gatherers or does it buy resources from them? If it controls the resource gatherers, I'm wondering how the resources make it out to the economy. Also, for things like granaries, how does the food get there and how does it get back to the people?

This is leading up to weapons and conflicts. Once I figure out government commodity production, they should hopefully be deciding soon to conquer nearby cities if they so please. I want to also put in some goals for the historical figures, like obtain a particular position or live a certain lifestyle.
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lemmily

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Re: Iron Testament - an ancient "open world roguelike" (pre-alpha)
« Reply #41 on: February 09, 2013, 10:06:26 am »

Thanks for the kind words so far everybody. I honestly didn't expect this to get much attention.

no problem, it's deserved - I'm just watching jealously whilst I play in the sand pit. (aka, whilst I fail miserably at understanding how on earth I implement economy/pathfinding/biome-making/everything in my hobby project.)

and I echo GreatWyrmGold with;
May all your bugs be hilarious and easy to fix.
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Clownmite

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Re: Iron Testament - an ancient "open world roguelike" (pre-alpha)
« Reply #42 on: February 09, 2013, 10:23:35 am »

no problem, it's deserved - I'm just watching jealously whilst I play in the sand pit. (aka, whilst I fail miserably at understanding how on earth I implement economy/pathfinding/biome-making/everything in my hobby project.)

Do you have a link to your project?

For the economy stuff, I'm basing it off of this paper here (This is a direct link to a pdf, if you're wary of opening it, just search google for "Emergent economies for role playing games"). If your project happens to be in Python I'd be happy to share my code so far with you, if it helps. I still need to work on creating a sustainable economy and tweaking agent behavior, so if anyone would like to take a look and offer me suggestions, let me know.

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GreatWyrmGold

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Re: Iron Testament - an ancient "open world roguelike" (pre-alpha)
« Reply #43 on: February 09, 2013, 01:43:20 pm »

Thatlooks like an interesting paper. I'll come back when I finish reading it.
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lemmily

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Re: Iron Testament - an ancient "open world roguelike" (pre-alpha)
« Reply #44 on: February 09, 2013, 01:54:56 pm »

Do you have a link to your project?
No, I don't have it online at all - besides it's not much to look at yet!

For the economy stuff, I'm basing it off of this paper here (This is a direct link to a pdf, if you're wary of opening it, just search google for "Emergent economies for role playing games").
Wow! that paper looks great. Where'd you find it? I have printed it off and will be giving it a good read tonight I think. Thanks for showing it me!

If your project happens to be in Python I'd be happy to share my code so far with you, if it helps. I still need to work on creating a sustainable economy and tweaking agent behavior, so if anyone would like to take a look and offer me suggestions, let me know.

My project isn't in Python - it's ... uh... actionscript. But I have dabbled with Python a little bit, so I can read it ok. I would love to have a look though, seeing how people approach the problems helps so much!

May I ask why you chose Python? I'm curious as a lot of Python roguelike projects keep appearing! :)
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