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Author Topic: Viva la Revolucion! Game Over, man, Game over!  (Read 121604 times)

zombie urist

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Re: Viva la Revolucion! Week 3, Day 1 - Planning Mode
« Reply #450 on: February 28, 2013, 05:40:20 pm »

In short, the reason I changed my vote to up is because I decided I trusted Ford's pick over LS'. I think its highly likely that LS is scum and thus I will not trust any team he proposes.

I do realize that NQT, whom I said was scummy earlier, was on the team Ford proposed, but after reviewing the evidence and with Ford's analysis, I don't think so any more. After a brief reread during class, I don't think Tiruin is that scummy either.

My now top choices are Toonyman, LS, and either Toaster/Dariush. Which I do realize is almost a total reversal from my previous statements. The largest contributing thing to this read is how quickly all 3 of them (Toony, LS, and Toaster) jumped at the Freedom Fighter BS. All 3 were equally quick to back down.
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The worst part of all of this is that Shakerag won.

Nerjin

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Re: Viva la Revolucion! Week 3, Day 1 - Planning Mode
« Reply #451 on: February 28, 2013, 05:43:55 pm »

In short, the reason I changed my vote to up is because I decided I trusted Ford's pick over LS'. I think its highly likely that LS is scum and thus I will not trust any team he proposes.

I do realize that NQT, whom I said was scummy earlier, was on the team Ford proposed, but after reviewing the evidence and with Ford's analysis, I don't think so any more. After a brief reread during class, I don't think Tiruin is that scummy either.

My now top choices are Toonyman, LS, and either Toaster/Dariush. Which I do realize is almost a total reversal from my previous statements. The largest contributing thing to this read is how quickly all 3 of them (Toony, LS, and Toaster) jumped at the Freedom Fighter BS. All 3 were equally quick to back down.

I'm calling BS on all of this. LS pick wasn't up for voting Ford's was. What exactly did Ford or NQT say to change your mind?

Total reversal indeed. Flailing scum lies is more like it.
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Leafsnail

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Re: Viva la Revolucion! Week 3, Day 1 - Planning Mode
« Reply #452 on: February 28, 2013, 07:57:44 pm »

I'm proposing a team tomorrow.  If anyone has any input to offer please do so now.
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notquitethere

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Re: Viva la Revolucion! Week 3, Day 1 - Planning Mode
« Reply #453 on: February 28, 2013, 09:11:32 pm »

My main reason for upvoting the team was that I had was convinced, for better or for worse that Ford was Town and as he's had time to give this game more analytical attention than I, I was essentially trusting his reads. Are we convinced by Toonyman's and Tiruin's reason for voting?

Leafsnail, I don't know if you're scum or town but know that I'm not having you on a team for the third time so don't bother putting yourself forward.

(Pfp- Been out all day and it's 2AM here- hopefully tommorrow I can have a proper read of things)
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Captain Ford

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Re: Viva la Revolucion! Week 3, Day 1 - Planning Mode
« Reply #454 on: February 28, 2013, 09:15:57 pm »

I'm breaking this up into two posts because of how ungodly huge it got.

Leafsnail:
Spoiler: Director's Cut (click to show/hide)

This is the scumteam.
...

You are so totally a spy now. (Well, you were always a spy. Now it's just obvious)

1. Where did this idea of a signal come from? I specifically said I didn't think they were communicating. That kind of thing might be common on mafiascum but not so much here.
2. You don't critically examine the evidence for flaws or other explanations. Instead, you jump to conclusions and immediately use this new development to paint out the entire scumteam.
3. Despite not hearing from either me or ZU, you're so certain you're right that you prominently put the announcement "This is the scumteam" in bold text.

This is all made worse by the fact you're the new organizer. You should be scrutinizing every detail you're using to build your team rather than seizing on something and running with it as far as you can. I mean, ZU's posts are pretty freaking tiny. It took me all of five minutes to bring up the lurkertracker and go over all his posts since he declared his opposition to a team with NQT and Nerjin on it.

But more importantly ... you're willing to not send yourself? Are you nuts?

I'm proposing a team tomorrow.  If anyone has any input to offer please do so now.
Is this helpful? :)



Nerjin: What's gotten into you? Flipping out at Dariush and getting all jumpy on me and ZU. I can kind of understand Dariush, but wow. Neither of us had had a chance to post before you made a snap decision about us. Jump the gun much?

PPE: Now that I think about it, Tiruin lost his cool with Dariush too. I guess I just have a thick skin. (too much time on /b/, I guess)

Total reversal indeed. Flailing scum lies is more like it.
Maybe, maybe not. Take a look at this:



Concerning zombie urist:

Spoiler: Progression (click to show/hide)

He actually did signal his change of heart. There's more posts than these three. But these ones clearly show the gradual progression from certain to not. To me, self-doubt is a strong sign of a rebel.

It doesn't mean he's not a spy. It's entirely possible that his uncertainty was about whether or not to take the risk of exposing himself. But his flipvote didn't come totally out of the blue

In any case, his explanation (that he changed his mind and believed in me) is totally consistent with what he said and did the day before the vote. To me, the manner in which ZU was acting leading up to the vote says that he's a rebel who changed his mind at the last second. The fact that he regrets the post where he spoke out against a team with Nerjin and NQT means that he wasn't as sure as he made himself look. His lack of certainty is corroborated by his posts leading up to the vote tally.

So I'm reading ZU as rebel.
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...Holy shit. Ford, you get the Official Medal of Epic Awesomeness.
Its official! Ford! You need to put it in your sig now! "Official Mafia Welcomer!"

Nerjin

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Re: Viva la Revolucion! Week 3, Day 1 - Planning Mode
« Reply #455 on: February 28, 2013, 09:18:55 pm »

My main reason for upvoting the team was that I had was convinced, for better or for worse that Ford was Town and as he's had time to give this game more analytical attention than I, I was essentially trusting his reads. Are we convinced by Toonyman's and Tiruin's reason for voting?

Leafsnail, I don't know if you're scum or town but know that I'm not having you on a team for the third time so don't bother putting yourself forward.

(Pfp- Been out all day and it's 2AM here- hopefully tommorrow I can have a proper read of things)

So you mean to say that you're basically saying that you're going to just follow Ford because you have no time? Not really a good thing to admit, much less to do.

@Ford Dude-bro... WoT's seem to be your thing. Give me a moment to read all that and I'll reply.
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Captain Ford

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Re: Viva la Revolucion! Week 3, Day 1 - Planning Mode
« Reply #456 on: February 28, 2013, 09:19:51 pm »


zombie urist:
The largest contributing thing to this read is how quickly all 3 of them (Toony, LS, and Toaster) jumped at the Freedom Fighter BS. All 3 were equally quick to back down.
... Are you sucking up to me?

Sorry, it's just that you're the first person to echo me on this point. Not even Nerjin backed me up on this, and he was the target.

Either way, I'd like to say that in my opinion, ToonyMan could just be oblivious, but I found the parroting by LS and Toaster to be much scummier.

Also, they didn't back down about it in the way you suggest. I just let it drop after I realized they weren't going to change their minds. Toaster backed down much later, as did ToonyMan, but LS has never changed his mind about Nerjin.



...Holy shit. Ford, you get the Official Medal of Epic Awesomeness. That's seriously an amazing gambit you pulled off. You have my respect, man.

Thanks, Dariush. That means a lot coming from you. (in all seriousness)

Now the big decision ... should I sig this?



notquitethere: Alright, yeah, that's pretty much what I figured your reasons were. You could just be parroting me, but since I already thought you thought that, I don't think you are.

This game is acutely unlike mafia in that it requires most of the town to trust one person, rather than most of the town to distrust one person. But it's still founded on "guilty until proven innocent".



Collected Reads:
Leafsnail - Spy. As certain as I can be.
Tiruin - Rebel. I'm pretty certain that Tiruin wouldn't pick a team with another spy on it if he was a spy, so if Leafsnail is a spy, Tiruin isn't.
Toaster - Unsure. Some mistakes. Some bad/shaky logic. Early on, when both Toaster and Leafsnail both supported Toony, I got the feeling that one of the two was a spy, but not both. At this point, I'm not sure they're not both spies.
Dariush - Unsure. He's been in synch with me for most of the game, but his methods are slightly different. I've had a bizarre reason for suspecting him since the start of the game -- he was mentioned in my role PM* Otherwise, it's hard for me to judge somebody who's basically identical to me but has less time to play.
Nerjin - Rebel? His recent behavior is pretty jumpy.
NQT - Rebel. I'm pretty sure NQT isn't playing me like he did in Mafia and Masons and Hackers**. For one thing, his sworn oath wasn't even addressed to me, it was addressed to Toony. And in that game, I started it long before I had a read on him, and he just played along.
ToonyMan - Rebel. If I'm right about ZU, the fact that no spies upvoted the team either means they were all already on it, or the team is all rebels.
Zombie Urist - Rebel.

* - See Spoiler:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

** See Spoiler
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
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...Holy shit. Ford, you get the Official Medal of Epic Awesomeness.
Its official! Ford! You need to put it in your sig now! "Official Mafia Welcomer!"

Captain Ford

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Re: Viva la Revolucion! Week 3, Day 1 - Planning Mode
« Reply #457 on: February 28, 2013, 09:27:09 pm »

Are we convinced by Toonyman's and Tiruin's reason for voting?
More or less. Read the end of my last post for the logic on why I think they're rebels.

@Ford Dude-bro... WoT's seem to be your thing. Give me a moment to read all that and I'll reply.
Sorry, I know I tend to be pretty verbose. But there's A LOT that happened after that last failed vote.

I try very hard to keep things compact ... and then I fail. :/
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...Holy shit. Ford, you get the Official Medal of Epic Awesomeness.
Its official! Ford! You need to put it in your sig now! "Official Mafia Welcomer!"

Nerjin

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Re: Viva la Revolucion! Week 3, Day 1 - Planning Mode
« Reply #458 on: February 28, 2013, 09:34:06 pm »

1. Where did this idea of a signal come from? I specifically said I didn't think they were communicating. That kind of thing might be common on mafiascum but not so much here.
2. You don't critically examine the evidence for flaws or other explanations. Instead, you jump to conclusions and immediately use this new development to paint out the entire scumteam.
3. Despite not hearing from either me or ZU, you're so certain you're right that you prominently put the announcement "This is the scumteam" in bold text.

In regards to #1 if you discount the idea only because it's uncommon than you're being a little foolish. It's always a possibility no matter how rare. I personally don't think it's what happened but I'm just saying.

Nerjin: What's gotten into you? Flipping out at Dariush and getting all jumpy on me and ZU. I can kind of understand Dariush, but wow. Neither of us had had a chance to post before you made a snap decision about us. Jump the gun much?

I'm on Dariush because he's gone way too far and has far surpassed my threshold for people being total jackasses. I don't care how respected he is on the forum. He's a good player sure, but I refuse to deal with him anymore.

I'm on ZU because of his DIRECT CONTRIDICTION of himself. If he had pointed it out prior to the vote being done, he had time, than I would have said "Alright, he changed his mind. What can ya really do?" BUT he did it in secret so it leads me to believe that he is a scum who tried to push the game into a victory by telling falsehoods to all of us. While you go on to point out reasons he 'may' have changed the fact of the matter is that he did so in secret. Making votes in secrets bespeaks an intent to trick the rest of the players. I'm not comfortable trusting someone who does that.

I'm on you because of your 'gambit'. You claim it was to trip up scum BECAUSE THE VOTE DIDN'T LOOK LIKE IT WOULD PASS. I'm more to the point of thinking that you switched because you wanted to protect yourself from scrutiny when it didn't pass.

One last thing though: STOP the WoT please. It's hard to keep up with everything when I have to sort through about twenty things to find what you're saying.
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Leafsnail

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Re: Viva la Revolucion! Week 3, Day 1 - Planning Mode
« Reply #459 on: February 28, 2013, 09:41:14 pm »

@CF: Ugh.

"I personally would have been" doesn't mean that everyone would have been.  I didn't consider the possibility that you were a townie pulling a ridiculous gambit (which could've torpedo'd an all rebel team and made you look like a spy), according to your logic), so I would've probably gone for it.

What the fuck, man. The risk is that somebody like me would pull exactly what I just pulled, and he'd be stuck with a vote that clashes with his camouflage.
Yes.  And that's exactly what happened.  So what's your point?  That only rebels could make a stupid mistake like that?

1. Where did this idea of a signal come from? I specifically said I didn't think they were communicating. That kind of thing might be common on mafiascum but not so much here.
I can actually think on my own - I don't require you to suggest an idea before I have it.  It's not common here because we have daytalk in almost all games (why signal when you can just like, tell the other mafia members what you are doing), but I think Tiruin, ZU and NQT are smart enough to come up with an idea as simple as a signal.

2. You don't critically examine the evidence for flaws or other explanations. Instead, you jump to conclusions and immediately use this new development to paint out the entire scumteam.
I could not see any other credible explanations.  I have still not seen any other credible explanations.

3. Despite not hearing from either me or ZU, you're so certain you're right that you prominently put the announcement "This is the scumteam" in bold text."
wait do I need to ask your permission before using bold text now

Seriously what the fuck does this mean?
This is all made worse by the fact you're the new organizer. You should be scrutinizing every detail you're using to build your team rather than seizing on something and running with it as far as you can. I mean, ZU's posts are pretty freaking tiny. It took me all of five minutes to bring up the lurkertracker and go over all his posts since he declared his opposition to a team with NQT and Nerjin on it.
Huh?  I read ZU's posts.  What do you want me to do with them?  I think telling everybody who the scumteam is is actually a pretty good contribution for an organizer, personally.

There's alternate translations of course.
You need to get a scumread on an actual spy or else your vote is a dead loss.

But more importantly ... you're willing to not send yourself? Are you nuts?
I'd rather get a rebel team passed now rather than give the spies two goes at making teams.  I don't think I can get a majority with me on the team, so that means I'm probably not going to be on it.

Jesus you write too much I'm responding to this stuff later.  If you cut out all the bad points that make no sense your posts would be a lot shorter.

My main reason for upvoting the team was that I had was convinced, for better or for worse that Ford was Town and as he's had time to give this game more analytical attention than I, I was essentially trusting his reads. Are we convinced by Toonyman's and Tiruin's reason for voting?
So your claim is that you were basically sheeping Ford's reads, and decided you wouldn't mention this until after the vote had already happened and after the game was already over with a spy victory.  Reaaalllyyy.
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Leafsnail

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Re: Viva la Revolucion! Week 3, Day 1 - Planning Mode
« Reply #460 on: February 28, 2013, 09:51:27 pm »

I really don't get you Ford.  You pull a ballsy gambit to try and catch scum votejumping.  You catch scum votejumping.  You read them as town because they very vaguely expressed something that might be interpretable as self-doubt if you sortof squint at it.

I'm certainly not seeing a "natural progression" when his second post still clearly states he's against it and the third is just asking about the deadline.
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Captain Ford

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Re: Viva la Revolucion! Week 3, Day 1 - Planning Mode
« Reply #461 on: February 28, 2013, 10:32:36 pm »

One last thing though: STOP the WoT please. It's hard to keep up with everything when I have to sort through about twenty things to find what you're saying.
Alright, I'll pare this down for you.

You claim it was to trip up scum BECAUSE THE VOTE DIDN'T LOOK LIKE IT WOULD PASS.
It makes no sense for me to upvote in a situation where the team can only pass if spies want it to.

Your suspicion makes no sense in light of the fact that I'm the one who kicked your ass into gear.

You wanted an extension. I wanted more time myself, but also figured I could get it without burning our one extension.

I really don't get you Ford.  You pull a ballsy gambit to try and catch scum votejumping.  You catch scum votejumping.  You read them as town because they very vaguely expressed something that might be interpretable as self-doubt if you sortof squint at it.

I'm certainly not seeing a "natural progression" when his second post still clearly states he's against it and the third is just asking about the deadline.
You made an assumption about how I would interpret the results. That ZU is a spy was not the only possible interpretation. I was aware of this when I made the decision to downvote -- people might upvote that I didn't expect, but I was happy with the team failing because NQT comes right after you and the extra time for discussion would be valuable.

ZU made that post BEFORE I proposed the team. 24 hours is more than enough time for one to change their mind. The fact that you didn't notice or consider this is simply inexcusable for someone who's been on the ball with your analyses as much as you have.

...basically, I think you made an attempt to play into my preconceptions and failed miserably. And now that I think about it ... that might explain a lot of your actions throughout the game that have been puzzling me.

The biggest thing is that you haven't been helping me or others find flaws in our arguments or reads. You're content to let us struggle and flail about. Winning as a rebel requires collaboration, but winning as a spy requires confusion. All along, you've been seeding confusion while discouraging discussion.
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...Holy shit. Ford, you get the Official Medal of Epic Awesomeness.
Its official! Ford! You need to put it in your sig now! "Official Mafia Welcomer!"

Nerjin

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Re: Viva la Revolucion! Week 3, Day 1 - Planning Mode
« Reply #462 on: February 28, 2013, 10:38:03 pm »

One last thing though: STOP the WoT please. It's hard to keep up with everything when I have to sort through about twenty things to find what you're saying.
Alright, I'll pare this down for you.

You claim it was to trip up scum BECAUSE THE VOTE DIDN'T LOOK LIKE IT WOULD PASS.
It makes no sense for me to upvote in a situation where the team can only pass if spies want it to.

Your suspicion makes no sense in light of the fact that I'm the one who kicked your ass into gear.

You wanted an extension. I wanted more time myself, but also figured I could get it without burning our one extension.

And I'd like to take some time to thank you for kicking my ass into gear as you put it but that doesn't exclude you from anything.

It makes sense to vote, however, on whether you think the team is filled with rebels or scum. You claim a gambit I doubt it. There's really no way either of us can prove anything without knowing your alignment. I'm leaning more towards scum personally. However you said it yourself. You only attempted the gambit because you felt the thing wouldn't pass. I'm sure that this is a simple town camoflauge on your part.
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ToonyMan

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Re: Viva la Revolucion! Week 3, Day 1 - Planning Mode
« Reply #463 on: February 28, 2013, 10:50:44 pm »

The flavor was that we were both in another team of revolutionaries together, which was nearly wiped out in a mission gone bad, with us as the two sole survivors. I didn't mention it before, because it's pure flavor and I'm sure it has no bearing on his alignment (since this game has no power roles). It's also pure WIFOM fuel, and would almost certainly have created a lethal shitstorm if I'd brought it up early on. I'm sure Dariush thought the same thing. I'm also sure that Dariush was thinking, "please god, don't let Ford be stupid and bring that up." But at this point, I think it's past the point where bringing it up would create a problem.
Dariush should confirm this.



Pretty interesting, Tiruin and NQT have always voted together.  Although that's not really damning, since for example Leafsnail and Captain Ford have always voted together as well (Toaster would be in this group too if he didn't fail to vote the 2nd round).
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Captain Ford

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Re: Viva la Revolucion! Week 3, Day 1 - Planning Mode
« Reply #464 on: March 01, 2013, 12:25:40 am »

Leafsnail: Somehow I entirely missed your big post above the smaller one.

Point was, basically, you're way more confident in your reads than I'm ready to believe anyone can be. Especially since I can't see how you came to your conclusions.

And yeah, I'm verbose. I'm not good at expressing myself in few words. When I see you guys do it, it's like magic to me.
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...Holy shit. Ford, you get the Official Medal of Epic Awesomeness.
Its official! Ford! You need to put it in your sig now! "Official Mafia Welcomer!"
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