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Bay12 Presidential Focus Polling 2016

Ted Cruz
- 7 (6.5%)
Rick Santorum
- 16 (14.8%)
Michelle Bachmann
- 13 (12%)
Chris Christie
- 23 (21.3%)
Rand Paul
- 49 (45.4%)

Total Members Voted: 107


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Author Topic: Bay12 Election Night Watch Party  (Read 574430 times)

MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Emperor Norton's Imperial Politics Megathread
« Reply #6495 on: April 12, 2014, 01:53:49 pm »

Because it can't be funded properly so long as it relies upon contributions from the workers to the retired. And given how large a portion of the budget it makes up, we can't just use more taxes to fund it.
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GlyphGryph

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Re: Emperor Norton's Imperial Politics Megathread
« Reply #6496 on: April 12, 2014, 01:58:50 pm »

Because it can't be funded properly so long as it relies upon contributions from the workers to the retired. And given how large a portion of the budget it makes up, we can't just use more taxes to fund it.

Why not? We'd only have to add enough taxes to make up the difference, not to fund the whole thing anew. Tax rates are incredibly low right now, the lowest they've basically been in a hundred years, there's plenty we could do to pull in more money if we decide we need to.

In fact, keeping SS solvent is probably one of the few things that would be politically feasible as a reason to raise taxes, something the government should be doing anyway, so in my mind everything about SS (it's effects, it's funding, it's future political ramifications) is a good thing. Why would we want to argue that we should get rid of it and let the old folks rot? What does that accomplish, exactly?
« Last Edit: April 12, 2014, 02:00:49 pm by GlyphGryph »
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Helgoland

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Re: Emperor Norton's Imperial Politics Megathread
« Reply #6497 on: April 12, 2014, 02:10:37 pm »

Because it can't be funded properly so long as it relies upon contributions from the workers to the retired. And given how large a portion of the budget it makes up, we can't just use more taxes to fund it.
Even if everyone saved up the money they'd then use for retirement, someone would still have to bake their bread, stock their supermarket, prescribe their medication... Money is just a way of signifying what part of the economic output belongs to who; the old will always have to be supported by the young.
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Arguably he's already a progressive, just one in the style of an enlightened Kaiser.
I'm going to do the smart thing here and disengage. This isn't a hill I paticularly care to die on.

10ebbor10

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Re: Emperor Norton's Imperial Politics Megathread
« Reply #6498 on: April 12, 2014, 02:14:01 pm »

Yeez, the US could triple it's taxes and still have a lower tax rate than several European countries.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Emperor Norton's Imperial Politics Megathread
« Reply #6499 on: April 12, 2014, 02:23:22 pm »

Because it can't be funded properly so long as it relies upon contributions from the workers to the retired. And given how large a portion of the budget it makes up, we can't just use more taxes to fund it.

Why not? We'd only have to add enough taxes to make up the difference, not to fund the whole thing anew. Tax rates are incredibly low right now, the lowest they've basically been in a hundred years, there's plenty we could do to pull in more money if we decide we need to.

In fact, keeping SS solvent is probably one of the few things that would be politically feasible as a reason to raise taxes, something the government should be doing anyway, so in my mind everything about SS (it's effects, it's funding, it's future political ramifications) is a good thing. Why would we want to argue that we should get rid of it and let the old folks rot? What does that accomplish, exactly?
You don't really get it, do you? I'll admit I'm not a fan of the retired population, but that's not what this is about. SS is going to collapse. Period. We can either replace it before the problem spirals out of control, or we can let it spiral out of control, but we most certainly can't keep it. The math fails on a basic level. There cannot be a lower population of contributors than beneficiaries.
Yeez, the US could triple it's taxes and still have a lower tax rate than several European countries.
The issue here is that if the US triples its taxes, it isn't going to be the fair progressive deal that you might get in Europe. It's going to be the "fair" flat deal that puts even more pressure on everybody but the rich.
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To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.
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Helgoland

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Re: Emperor Norton's Imperial Politics Megathread
« Reply #6500 on: April 12, 2014, 02:50:58 pm »

Then raise the age of eligibility, for crying out loud! Also, the US population is still growing - come look at Europe or Japan if you want to see a real demographic problem.
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Arguably he's already a progressive, just one in the style of an enlightened Kaiser.
I'm going to do the smart thing here and disengage. This isn't a hill I paticularly care to die on.

misko27

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Re: Emperor Norton's Imperial Politics Megathread
« Reply #6501 on: April 13, 2014, 09:17:50 am »

US birth rates are actually similar to European ones, we just get so many immigrants it doesn't matter. And if you include the illegals it goes up even more (We have 11 million illegals.)
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Sheb

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Re: Emperor Norton's Imperial Politics Megathread
« Reply #6502 on: April 13, 2014, 09:31:51 am »

Yeah, grant more work visas to illegals to broaden the tax base and just remove the cap on payroll tax (they're the one that fund SS, right?) would go a long way.

Also, who's the genius that decided the retirement program would share initials with the Schutzstaffel?
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10ebbor10

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Re: Emperor Norton's Imperial Politics Megathread
« Reply #6503 on: April 13, 2014, 09:34:37 am »

It's counter socialist Republican propaganda, duh.
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Frumple

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Re: Emperor Norton's Imperial Politics Megathread
« Reply #6504 on: April 13, 2014, 09:35:15 am »

Presumably the same one that decided federal unemployment's initials should be futa.
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Owlbread

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Re: Emperor Norton's Imperial Politics Megathread
« Reply #6505 on: April 13, 2014, 09:38:01 am »

The United States should be a Welfare State. In my opinion that means the state should provide enough economic and medical support to all its citizens so that no matter how poor they are, no matter whether they have a job or not, they earn enough from the state to survive and can always get the medical care they need to survive and be healthy free at point of use.

I lean in favour of the "citizen's income" idea where, regardless of who you are, you earn enough money to live on from the state as a right of citizenship. That amount is augmented depending on how much you earn in your job, your disabilities, your age and so on. This may be a helpful alternative to a very bloated benefits system like we have in the UK where it is hard to keep track of the various subsidies and benefits meted out to people; this becomes expensive if means testing comes into play.

EDIT: If the citizen's income is impossible, the minimum wage should also be replaced with a "living wage" that prevents its recipients from falling below the poverty line.

Regarding the health care system the United States should have a National Health Service that covers both medical care and dental care. This would again be free at point of use. Medicine prescribed by American NHS doctors should also be free.

I also believe that education should be "free at point of use"; that goes for higher education also. No more college tuition fees.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2014, 10:20:47 am by Owlbread »
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Helgoland

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Re: Emperor Norton's Imperial Politics Megathread
« Reply #6506 on: April 13, 2014, 09:53:53 am »

Owl: I very much like the basic income idea, but you're making it too complicated, I think. The beauty of the concept is that you can get rid of all the bureaucracy! Re-introducing eligibility requirements for augmentations means losing the advantage over the current German Hartz4 system (keeping out-of-work people alive, but pushing them back into working).
And once you have the basic income, what do you need the minimum wage for?
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The Bay12 postcard club
Arguably he's already a progressive, just one in the style of an enlightened Kaiser.
I'm going to do the smart thing here and disengage. This isn't a hill I paticularly care to die on.

misko27

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Re: Emperor Norton's Imperial Politics Megathread
« Reply #6507 on: April 13, 2014, 10:14:21 am »

@Owlbread. On the other hand, America.

You're entire argument just collapsed and you probably don't realize it. But there was and is so much resistance to stuff that is seen as diametrically opposed to capitalism that income taxes were actually unconstitutional until the 16th Amendment. There is a reason the new leftist pseudo-universal health care system the US has is, in fact, a market based approach (one that, notably, is similar to what the more intellectual minds in the tea party come up with when pressed for ideas. Remember that it was Romney who pioneered it. Except not now because Obama.)

Wikipedia also just blew my mind.
Quote from: Taxation in the United States
The United States of America is a federal republic with autonomous state and local governments. Taxes are imposed in the United States at each of these levels. These include taxes on income, payroll, property, sales, imports, estates and gifts, as well as various fees. In 2010 taxes collected by federal, state and municipal governments amounted to 24.8% of GDP. In the OECD, only Chile and Mexico taxed less as a share of GDP.[1] The United States also has one of the most progressive tax systems in the industrialized world.
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Owlbread

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Re: Emperor Norton's Imperial Politics Megathread
« Reply #6508 on: April 13, 2014, 10:16:03 am »

Owl: I very much like the basic income idea, but you're making it too complicated, I think. The beauty of the concept is that you can get rid of all the bureaucracy! Re-introducing eligibility requirements for augmentations means losing the advantage over the current German Hartz4 system (keeping out-of-work people alive, but pushing them back into working).

Could you tell us more about the current German Hartz4 system? Does it avoid eligibility requirements for augmentations? I am very interested.

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And once you have the basic income, what do you need the minimum wage for?

That's a very good question. An excellent one, in fact. I wish I'd thought of that when I was writing out those proposals but I wasn't thinking clearly.

@Owlbread. On the other hand, America.

You're entire argument just collapsed and you probably don't realize it. But there was and is so much resistance to stuff that is seen as diametrically opposed to capitalism that income taxes were actually unconstitutional until the 16th Amendment. There is a reason the new leftist pseudo-universal health care system the US has is, in fact, a market based approach (one that, notably, is similar to what the more intellectual minds in the tea party come up with when pressed for ideas. Remember that it was Romney who pioneered it. Except not now because Obama.)

This explains a lot. So the United States had no income tax until 1913? The "market-based approach" to virtually everything in the United States really rubs me the wrong way.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2014, 10:24:35 am by Owlbread »
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GlyphGryph

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Re: Emperor Norton's Imperial Politics Megathread
« Reply #6509 on: April 13, 2014, 10:27:52 am »

You don't really get it, do you? I'll admit I'm not a fan of the retired population, but that's not what this is about. SS is going to collapse. Period. We can either replace it before the problem spirals out of control, or we can let it spiral out of control, but we most certainly can't keep it. The math fails on a basic level. There cannot be a lower population of contributors than beneficiaries.
Literally the only way for SS to collapse is for people to want it to collapse.  There can most definitely be a lower population of contributors than beneficiaries, and even that doesn't matter all that much since the population of the US isn't likely to start decreasing at any point in the future - and if it does, we can easily fix that too.

You can certainly argue we'd be better off with another system - but the alarmism is completely uncalled for. The only risk to Social Security is political, not technical, and the sorts of claims you're making are the thing that feeds into that actually having a chance of becoming reality. If you have a better system, by all means, propose it, but there's nothing unsustainable about the current one except in the minds of those who believe that we can't modify existing laws as needed for some reason.
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