Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Poll

Bay12 Presidential Focus Polling 2016

Ted Cruz
- 7 (6.5%)
Rick Santorum
- 16 (14.8%)
Michelle Bachmann
- 13 (12%)
Chris Christie
- 23 (21.3%)
Rand Paul
- 49 (45.4%)

Total Members Voted: 107


Pages: 1 ... 437 438 [439] 440 441 ... 667

Author Topic: Bay12 Election Night Watch Party  (Read 608877 times)

kaijyuu

  • Bay Watcher
  • Hrm...
    • View Profile
Re: Emperor Norton's Imperial Politics Megathread
« Reply #6570 on: April 13, 2014, 02:30:21 pm »

I'll pop in to note that any working system of guaranteed income needs to not have any exploitable breakpoints. No extra dollar you earn should have an overall negative impact.

A lot of the problems with our current welfare systems/etc is that once you start earning past some arbitrary breakpoint, you suddenly lose out on a lot of benefits. So people are encouraged to hover just below it, when we should always be encouraging people to work more.
Logged
Quote from: Chesterton
For, in order that men should resist injustice, something more is necessary than that they should think injustice unpleasant. They must think injustice absurd; above all, they must think it startling. They must retain the violence of a virgin astonishment. When the pessimist looks at any infamy, it is to him, after all, only a repetition of the infamy of existence. But the optimist sees injustice as something discordant and unexpected, and it stings him into action.

Sheb

  • Bay Watcher
  • You Are An Avatar
    • View Profile
Re: Emperor Norton's Imperial Politics Megathread
« Reply #6571 on: April 13, 2014, 02:51:21 pm »

Actually, at least for federal benefits, there is no real breakpoint in the current system (Earning more never results in less income), but the marginal tax rate (How much the state takes from every extra dollar, including benefits cut) reach 95% at some point. Source: An article in the Economist I read in paper.

Still, one advantage of a universal income (or of generally merging benefits) is that it's easier to design the system right.

By the way, does anyone has data on what percentage of the cost of benefits program goes to administration and overhead?
Logged

Quote from: Paul-Henry Spaak
Europe consists only of small countries, some of which know it and some of which don’t yet.

GreatJustice

  • Bay Watcher
  • ☭The adventure continues (refresh)☭
    • View Profile
Re: Emperor Norton's Imperial Politics Megathread
« Reply #6572 on: April 13, 2014, 04:42:59 pm »

Actually, at least for federal benefits, there is no real breakpoint in the current system (Earning more never results in less income), but the marginal tax rate (How much the state takes from every extra dollar, including benefits cut) reach 95% at some point. Source: An article in the Economist I read in paper.

Still, one advantage of a universal income (or of generally merging benefits) is that it's easier to design the system right.

By the way, does anyone has data on what percentage of the cost of benefits program goes to administration and overhead?

Income doesn't get cut by the increased taxes, but welfare payments definitely do.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Logged
The person supporting regenerating health, when asked why you can see when shot in the eye justified it as 'you put on an eyepatch'. When asked what happens when you are then shot in the other eye, he said that you put an eyepatch on that eye. When asked how you'd be able to see, he said that your first eye would have healed by then.

Professional Bridge Toll Collector?

Sheb

  • Bay Watcher
  • You Are An Avatar
    • View Profile
Re: Emperor Norton's Imperial Politics Megathread
« Reply #6573 on: April 13, 2014, 04:47:44 pm »

Well, I may be wrong. Are those federal numbers, or numbers for Pennsylvania, including state benefits though?

Edit: I tracked the article down, after using a proxy to circumvent the paywall. The fun thing is that it's also for Pennsylvania, where they're quoting a CBO studies that look at a single mom, but the marginal tax rate never get higher that 95% (i.e. You never actually loose money by earning a bigger wage). I can't explain the discrepancy between my article and your graph.

« Last Edit: April 13, 2014, 04:58:22 pm by Sheb »
Logged

Quote from: Paul-Henry Spaak
Europe consists only of small countries, some of which know it and some of which don’t yet.

Helgoland

  • Bay Watcher
  • No man is an island.
    • View Profile
Re: Emperor Norton's Imperial Politics Megathread
« Reply #6574 on: April 13, 2014, 05:08:44 pm »

Take a look at a true welfare state's budget, namely that of Germany. The size of the whole budget is 310*109€, the welfare budget is ~120*109€, and the health budget is ~12*109€.
Germany has a population of slightly more than 80 million people. If we assume a basic income of 500€ per month per person, we get a financial requirement of 480*109€ per year. Now, this doesn't take into account that the German government subsidizes pensions etc., but these subsidies could be phased out after a  - roughly the same amount of money that's being spent. Now, this ignores some spending in the pension and health sectors, but the introduction of a basic income would allow a tax raise that gets back almost all the money given to people who don't need it.

EDIT: I forgot a factor of twelve! That's what happens when you do calculations without units.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2014, 05:14:36 pm by Helgoland »
Logged
The Bay12 postcard club
Arguably he's already a progressive, just one in the style of an enlightened Kaiser.
I'm going to do the smart thing here and disengage. This isn't a hill I paticularly care to die on.

GreatJustice

  • Bay Watcher
  • ☭The adventure continues (refresh)☭
    • View Profile
Re: Emperor Norton's Imperial Politics Megathread
« Reply #6575 on: April 13, 2014, 06:43:37 pm »

Well, I may be wrong. Are those federal numbers, or numbers for Pennsylvania, including state benefits though?

Edit: I tracked the article down, after using a proxy to circumvent the paywall. The fun thing is that it's also for Pennsylvania, where they're quoting a CBO studies that look at a single mom, but the marginal tax rate never get higher that 95% (i.e. You never actually loose money by earning a bigger wage). I can't explain the discrepancy between my article and your graph.



Economic statistics are annoyingly malleable at times. I'll go look for an article on this myself and maybe we can figure this out. brb

edit: alright, here's the article attached to the image: http://www.scribd.com/fullscreen/114628958?access_key=key-2lath56wpkd24rabyzx5&allow_share=true&escape=false&view_mode=scroll
« Last Edit: April 13, 2014, 06:47:05 pm by GreatJustice »
Logged
The person supporting regenerating health, when asked why you can see when shot in the eye justified it as 'you put on an eyepatch'. When asked what happens when you are then shot in the other eye, he said that you put an eyepatch on that eye. When asked how you'd be able to see, he said that your first eye would have healed by then.

Professional Bridge Toll Collector?

mainiac

  • Bay Watcher
  • Na vazeal kwah-kai
    • View Profile
Re: Emperor Norton's Imperial Politics Megathread
« Reply #6576 on: April 13, 2014, 08:24:32 pm »

I leave for a few days and people start posting crap about social security being a basket case.



Yeah, it's a total meltdown!  Run for the hills!
Logged
Ancient Babylonian god of RAEG
--------------
[CAN_INTERNET]
[PREFSTRING:google]
"Don't tell me what you value. Show me your budget and I will tell you what you value"
« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
mainiac is always a little sarcastic, at least.

BurnedToast

  • Bay Watcher
  • Personal Text
    • View Profile
Re: Emperor Norton's Imperial Politics Megathread
« Reply #6577 on: April 13, 2014, 11:44:27 pm »

Because it can't be funded properly so long as it relies upon contributions from the workers to the retired. And given how large a portion of the budget it makes up, we can't just use more taxes to fund it.

Why not? We'd only have to add enough taxes to make up the difference, not to fund the whole thing anew. Tax rates are incredibly low right now, the lowest they've basically been in a hundred years, there's plenty we could do to pull in more money if we decide we need to.

In fact, keeping SS solvent is probably one of the few things that would be politically feasible as a reason to raise taxes, something the government should be doing anyway, so in my mind everything about SS (it's effects, it's funding, it's future political ramifications) is a good thing. Why would we want to argue that we should get rid of it and let the old folks rot? What does that accomplish, exactly?
You don't really get it, do you? I'll admit I'm not a fan of the retired population, but that's not what this is about. SS is going to collapse. Period. We can either replace it before the problem spirals out of control, or we can let it spiral out of control, but we most certainly can't keep it. The math fails on a basic level. There cannot be a lower population of contributors than beneficiaries.

No, it's not going to collapse, period. This is just BS misinformation and lies spread by people who want to kill it for political reasons. Social security actually currently shows a slight surplus and is expected to continue to show a surplus till 2021. In 2021 payouts are expected to exceed income - but even if *nothing* is done it will be able to make full payouts till at least 2033 and continue to make 3/4 payouts indefinitely. Now, cutting payments to 3/4 is far from ideal, but it's hardly "collapsing" and 3/4ths is a lot more then "never getting SS payments".

Meanwhile, there are things we could do such as raising the wage limits for example, that would let them make full payments indefinitely, or even just allow more immigration to increase the workforce.

Fun fact: The biggest single cause of the shortfall, contributing 43% is not falling birth rates, or people living longer, but rather the rising income inequality in the US.
Logged
An ambush! curse all friends of nature!

Loud Whispers

  • Bay Watcher
  • They said we have to aim higher, so we dug deeper.
    • View Profile
    • I APPLAUD YOU SIRRAH
Re: Emperor Norton's Imperial Politics Megathread
« Reply #6578 on: April 14, 2014, 11:18:04 am »

You know how I'm opposed to all these laws that are overbearing on the populace for the sake of anti-terrurism, but this one has me conflicted.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

On the one hand, I'm morally opposed, on the other hand it causes the arrests of attention seeking brats. I think the fact that it's enjoyable just makes it even more immoral.

nenjin

  • Bay Watcher
  • WHERE'S YOUR MOTIVATION!?!?
    • View Profile
Re: Emperor Norton's Imperial Politics Megathread
« Reply #6579 on: April 14, 2014, 11:24:33 am »

And this is why Twitter is stupid.
Logged
Cautivo del Milagro seamos, Penitente.
Quote from: Viktor Frankl
When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves.
Quote from: Sindain
Its kinda silly to complain that a friendly NPC isn't a well designed boss fight.
Quote from: Eric Blank
How will I cheese now assholes?
Quote from: MrRoboto75
Always spaghetti, never forghetti

Helgoland

  • Bay Watcher
  • No man is an island.
    • View Profile
Re: Emperor Norton's Imperial Politics Megathread
« Reply #6580 on: April 14, 2014, 11:28:26 am »

-snip-
I'd say it's perfectly reasonable to arrest her - beware the beginnings! You have to draw the line somewhere, and since there's very few people as dumb as her, we can draw it like it is drawn today.
Logged
The Bay12 postcard club
Arguably he's already a progressive, just one in the style of an enlightened Kaiser.
I'm going to do the smart thing here and disengage. This isn't a hill I paticularly care to die on.

Descan

  • Bay Watcher
  • [HEADING INTENSIFIES]
    • View Profile
Re: Emperor Norton's Imperial Politics Megathread
« Reply #6581 on: April 14, 2014, 11:29:11 am »

The chronology of those posts was a little confusing... Just straight down, right?
Logged
Quote from: SalmonGod
Your innocent viking escapades for canadian social justice and immortality make my flagellum wiggle, too.
Quote from: Myroc
Descan confirmed for antichrist.
Quote from: LeoLeonardoIII
I wonder if any of us don't love Descan.

Loud Whispers

  • Bay Watcher
  • They said we have to aim higher, so we dug deeper.
    • View Profile
    • I APPLAUD YOU SIRRAH
Re: Emperor Norton's Imperial Politics Megathread
« Reply #6582 on: April 14, 2014, 11:39:47 am »

You don't shout fire in a crowded theatre.

Darvi

  • Bay Watcher
  • <Cript> Darvi is my wifi.
    • View Profile
Re: Emperor Norton's Imperial Politics Megathread
« Reply #6583 on: April 14, 2014, 12:20:41 pm »

You don't shout fire in a crowded theatre.
I'll keep that in mind the next time I see a fire. Not like I had any intention of doing it in the first place.
Logged

Loud Whispers

  • Bay Watcher
  • They said we have to aim higher, so we dug deeper.
    • View Profile
    • I APPLAUD YOU SIRRAH
Re: Emperor Norton's Imperial Politics Megathread
« Reply #6584 on: April 14, 2014, 12:38:33 pm »

You don't shout fire in a crowded theatre.
I'll keep that in mind the next time I see a fire. Not like I had any intention of doing it in the first place.
But then it'd be a burning crowded theatre. Different scenario altogether.
Pages: 1 ... 437 438 [439] 440 441 ... 667