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Bay12 Presidential Focus Polling 2016

Ted Cruz
- 7 (6.5%)
Rick Santorum
- 16 (14.8%)
Michelle Bachmann
- 13 (12%)
Chris Christie
- 23 (21.3%)
Rand Paul
- 49 (45.4%)

Total Members Voted: 107


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Author Topic: Bay12 Election Night Watch Party  (Read 567432 times)

Loud Whispers

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Re: Emperor Norton's Imperial Politics Megathread
« Reply #6450 on: April 10, 2014, 10:39:09 am »

TL:DR Greedy rich prick doesn't pay the government a million dollars he owes
Disputed
claims to be Robbin Hood
Where?
blames liberals.
Where?

It would be foolish to write off a neat narrative so early without the facts when both parties, one with clearly much to lose and the other being American police of all things, are both untrustworthy.

Sheb

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Re: Emperor Norton's Imperial Politics Megathread
« Reply #6451 on: April 10, 2014, 10:46:18 am »

Yeah, I'm hardly surprised given all I read about the "warrior cop".
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mainiac

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Re: Emperor Norton's Imperial Politics Megathread
« Reply #6452 on: April 10, 2014, 10:46:54 am »

TL:DR Greedy rich prick doesn't pay the government a million dollars he owes
Disputed

Disputed by a guy who doesn't want to cough up the money he owes.

claims to be Robbin Hood
Where?
blames liberals.
Where?

He's painting this as a political issue when it's a simple example of a greedy prick trying to cheat everyone collectively out of the money he owes for the use of public land.  He's blowing up a bunch of smoke about turtles because he owes a lot of money and doesn't want to pay.

HEY GUYS MY LANDLORD IS A FASCIST AND IS TRYING TO SHAKE ME DOWN FOR MONEY.  So what if my appartment is located on traditional indian lands, the indians are gone and only a bunch of liberals care about that crap.  I'm staging a protest, come protest my right to not have to pay my landlord!  Bring guns!
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
mainiac is always a little sarcastic, at least.

Loud Whispers

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Re: Emperor Norton's Imperial Politics Megathread
« Reply #6453 on: April 10, 2014, 11:11:25 am »

Disputed by a guy who doesn't want to cough up the money he owes.
The dispute comes from the fact that he and his family have run that ranch there since the 19th century, and that land belongs to Nevada and as such is public to him. These two things lend him heavy weight in consideration, and is not something to discard.

He's painting this as a political issue when it's a simple example of a greedy prick trying to cheat everyone collectively out of the money he owes for the use of public land.  He's blowing up a bunch of smoke about turtles because he owes a lot of money and doesn't want to pay.
On the contrary, looking into this more it seems that the dispute is on who owns the public land; Washington or Nevada? I haven't seen him turn this into a partisan issue or bring up the Tortoises, the Tortoises were brought up by the BML and the partisanship by you.

HEY GUYS MY LANDLORD IS A FASCIST AND IS TRYING TO SHAKE ME DOWN FOR MONEY.  So what if my appartment is located on traditional indian lands, the indians are gone and only a bunch of liberals care about that crap.  I'm staging a protest, come protest my right to not have to pay my landlord!  Bring guns!
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/apr/9/feds-surround-nevada-ranch-latest-standoff/?page=1
200 soldiers LEOs, snipers, 8 helicopters circling his ranch continuously, attack dogs, plenty of guns and plenty of vehicles. They recently arrested the guy's son for filming the police. The police have also gone around tazing the protestors;
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
And this is always just so sad. The feds have federal permission to use heavy artillery to remove the cattle, and this is very much becoming a state vs big state issue. That last news source is fox "news," but I'd trust them to at least get the arrival of state officials right.
This is a muddy issue, but you need to control yourself - you're getting rabid and I don't see why or how you think that'll make anything clearer, if a reasoned discussion is what you want. Myself? I thought it was interesting to see who has the moral right here - but in any case, this is just another demonstration of the excessive power and the implementation of said power that the American police holds over its wards. One would suspect that both republicans and democrats would be able to agree that the casual abuse of power is bad, but alas, much easier to just bitch about each other than converse about actual problems.

mainiac

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Re: Emperor Norton's Imperial Politics Megathread
« Reply #6454 on: April 10, 2014, 11:37:36 am »

The dispute comes from the fact that he and his family have run that ranch there since the 19th century, and that land belongs to Nevada and as such is public to him. These two things lend him heavy weight in consideration, and is not something to discard.

1) This case was tried in court.  He lost the case.  The court decided that the cattle would be forcibly confiscated.
2) He is aware that the law is clearly against him and insists he doesn't need to follow the law

The reason why there are those armed people around is because THATS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU IGNORE THE LAW.  Men with guns show up and enforce the law.  If you fall behind on rent, the sheriff evicts you.  If you illegally occupy land in the backcountry, men in helicopters with rifles come and confiscate your shit.  And if your son ignores the fact that a year of legal proceedings have made it abundantly clear he needs to GTFO from a patch of land he insists on standing on, he gets arrested and removed from that patch of land.

The right wing is making a big deal about black helicopters and armed federal agents while ignoring the whole court case and ample warning.  This guy has been treated with kid gloves.  He is not just getting off lightly compared to what someone would expect in say, Russia; he's getting treated gently compared to what your typical urban poor person would expect if they feel behind in rent.

Oh but he's rich and he's a "producer" not a leach on society so he's justified on wasting millions of dollars of government money with this dog and pony show.
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
mainiac is always a little sarcastic, at least.

Chaoswizkid

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Re: Emperor Norton's Imperial Politics Megathread
« Reply #6455 on: April 10, 2014, 11:59:34 am »

Mainiac, it would probably help if you posted links supporting your arguments when you made them, rather than post your arguments, argue the point to whoever is willing to argue against it, wait until they say that you're bringing up stuff that hasn't been established on the thread, and then post links that support your argument and say "Look, I was right the whole time!". It'd probably involve a lot less arguing, or a lot less people thinking they're dealing with inference or conjecture.


Also, lawlerskates Fox News. The quote they got from the Governor:
Quote
“No cow justifies the atmosphere of intimidation which currently exists nor the limitation of constitutional rights that are sacred to all Nevadans.”
pertains only to the BLM setting up "First Amendment Zones" or whatever they're called, not to whether or not Bundy's cows should be removed from the area.
Or that's just how the quote was presented in the RT link, so maybe that's wrong as well, but that felt more consistent and wholesome.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Emperor Norton's Imperial Politics Megathread
« Reply #6456 on: April 10, 2014, 12:06:05 pm »

1) This case was tried in court.  He lost the case.  The court decided that the cattle would be forcibly confiscated.
2) He is aware that the law is clearly against him and insists he doesn't need to follow the law
There is a conflict between state and federal law. Similarly a ruling can be unjust, which is when people will protest. Instead of listening to said protests and gauging whether they are validated or not, just send in the police and fuck em! Because as we all know, moral actions aren't moral because of what you've done, no, they're moral based on who you attack.

The reason why there are those armed people around is because THATS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU IGNORE THE LAW.  Men with guns show up and enforce the law.  If you fall behind on rent, the sheriff evicts you.  If you illegally occupy land in the backcountry, men in helicopters with rifles come and confiscate your shit.  And if your son ignores the fact that a year of legal proceedings have made it abundantly clear he needs to GTFO from a patch of land he insists on standing on, he gets arrested and removed from that patch of land.
His family have been in that land since before the BML existed. His son was perfectly within his rights to film the officers. I haven't seen you excuse the police assaulting the protestors yet, so there's that. This isn't a sheriff coming over or something, this is an army. Their family have been on that land for 150 years, and are unlikely to move.

The right wing is making a big deal about black helicopters and armed federal agents while ignoring the whole court case and ample warning.  This guy has been treated with kid gloves.
No, he's being treated with black helicopters and armed federal agents. I've noticed you haven't been talking about this man as a man, but rather you have been talking about this man as if he were the right wing political machine. It is rather dehumanizing, and rather redundant. It is unwise to blindly tie yourself to a movement and treat all outside that movement as enemies.

  He is not just getting off lightly compared to what someone would expect in say, Russia
USA: At least we're not Russia.
Quote
Carol Bundy said five agents took Dave and “threw him on the ground.”

“One put his knee on his head, the other put his boot on his head and pushed him into the gravel,” she said. “He’s got quite a bruised head. Just bruised him up pretty good.”
Yeah, fuck that 67 year old man. Of course they needed more police, more surveillance! Shutting down all the roads wasn't enough. More guns. If you aren't tazering everyone twice you're doing it wrong.

he's getting treated gently compared to what your typical urban poor person would expect if they feel behind in rent.
What does this even mean? NBC definitions or what? What does this have to do with anything?

Oh but he's rich and he's a "producer" not a leach on society so he's justified on wasting millions of dollars of government money with this dog and pony show.
When you look at something murky, it's always a good experiment to see who benefits.
There is a fair chance that the reason why the feds are spending at least $3,000,000 to claim $1,000,000 is to remove this man and make way for Bechtel and Brightsource Energy who are getting subsidized $1,600,000,000 by the US gov to build their solar farms, especially considering the BML wants to get rid of the cattle "for the tortoises safety" whilst simultaneously knowing the solar project will result in the extinction of the tortoises in the area.
I never quite get that about Americans, one half fears the big corporation controlling more of their country so they make the governments bigger. The other half fears the big government controlling more of their country so they make the corporations bigger. The corporations get bigger and lobby the government with copious amounts of money, and in turn the government makes sure that through legislation the corporations get more money. I'm not sure whether you genuinely want paramilitary forces enforcing your laws with the zeal of Russian KGB, or if you are only supporting the snipers and black helicopters because they're targeting a republican.
Either way, I despair, I wish that you never run afoul of the US law enforcement.

mainiac

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Re: Emperor Norton's Imperial Politics Megathread
« Reply #6457 on: April 10, 2014, 12:09:19 pm »

Mainiac, it would probably help if you posted links supporting your arguments when you made them,

You mean like this?

1) This case was tried in court.  He lost the case.  The court decided that the cattle would be forcibly confiscated.

snip

Yes he has his argument but the underlying facts here is that there is a law that is against him, he was stubborn so the black helicopters were the only way to enforce that law.  It sucks that he feels mistreated but he's hardly persecuted here, just prosecuted.

Sometimes civil disobedience is needed in a society but Ghandi this guy aint.
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Emperor Norton's Imperial Politics Megathread
« Reply #6458 on: April 10, 2014, 12:13:25 pm »

I'm just going to brush over the fact that you addressed none of my points, and just repeat what you said.

1. There is a law that is against him
2. He was stubborn.
3. The black helicopters were the only way to enforce that law.

GlyphGryph

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Re: Emperor Norton's Imperial Politics Megathread
« Reply #6459 on: April 10, 2014, 12:13:56 pm »

His family have been in that land since before the BML existed. His son was perfectly within his rights to film the officers. I haven't seen you excuse the police assaulting the protestors yet, so there's that. This isn't a sheriff coming over or something, this is an army. Their family have been on that land for 150 years, and are unlikely to move.
I'm pretty sure how long you're family has been some where has exactly zero impact on what will happen when you don't pay your rent for 20 years.

Honestly, the Fed response is absolutely stupid though. The Feds being utterly stupid over enforcing the law is a pretty common if terrible fact. It's no Waco, and it's clear the guy is a crook complaining about the fact that he isn't getting away with it anymore, but the Fed response is still hilariously stupid.

Why don't they just arrest the guy for contempt of court or whatever happens when you refuse to do things you're legally required to do as part of a court case?

That part IS similar to Waco, where they could have easily arrested the guy but decided to go gung-ho show-of-force time instead.

Maniac, do you have any idea why they decided to do it this way instead of just arresting the guy?

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Loud Whispers

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Re: Emperor Norton's Imperial Politics Megathread
« Reply #6460 on: April 10, 2014, 12:23:43 pm »

I find the hardest part about talking about American anything is that people have already made up their minds before you've finished talking.

His family have been in that land since before the BML existed. His son was perfectly within his rights to film the officers. I haven't seen you excuse the police assaulting the protestors yet, so there's that. This isn't a sheriff coming over or something, this is an army. Their family have been on that land for 150 years, and are unlikely to move.
I'm pretty sure how long you're family has been some where has exactly zero impact on what will happen when you don't pay your rent for 20 years.
Indeed. I'm not convinced either way on who owns that land. My protests are mainly about the hypocrisy of them kicking out this man whilst simultaneously allowing big corporations to fuck the tortoises up, and the sheer excessive scale of force used and the blatant miscarriage of such apparently disposable rights as freedom of expression.

Chaoswizkid

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Re: Emperor Norton's Imperial Politics Megathread
« Reply #6461 on: April 10, 2014, 12:27:02 pm »

Mainiac, it would probably help if you posted links supporting your arguments when you made them,

You mean like this?

1) This case was tried in court.  He lost the case.  The court decided that the cattle would be forcibly confiscated.
Yup, a link that you could have posted 2 posts of yours ago, along with links that show him advocating gathering protestors with weapons or him speaking out against the government with the explicit use of the word "liberal" or "left-wing" or etc.
Since that would help discussions on these forums if there were "a lot less people thinking they're dealing with inference or conjecture."

Here's what I said, again. Keep in mind it's basically a words-only flow-chart of what you were doing by finally posting that court case link.
Mainiac, it would probably help if you posted links supporting your arguments when you made them, rather than post your arguments, argue the point to whoever is willing to argue against it, wait until they say that you're bringing up stuff that hasn't been established on the thread, and then post links that support your argument and say "Look, I was right the whole time!".
« Last Edit: April 10, 2014, 12:30:30 pm by Chaoswizkid »
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Helgoland

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Re: Emperor Norton's Imperial Politics Megathread
« Reply #6462 on: April 10, 2014, 12:37:44 pm »

LW: Why's that hypocrisy? The guy didn't pay up, he's getting removed, someone else is moving in (as far as I'm informed). If we don't care about the turtles, we have to approve of the government's actions; if we do, we can only criticize that they'll suffer from the solar power plant, not that the guy who's harming them right now is being disowned to pay for his debt.
And I believe the guy's son (it wasn't the guy himself) was not arrested for filming the police, but for being in an area he wasn't allowed to enter.
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I'm going to do the smart thing here and disengage. This isn't a hill I paticularly care to die on.

Sheb

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Re: Emperor Norton's Imperial Politics Megathread
« Reply #6463 on: April 10, 2014, 12:52:28 pm »

Still, it seems like a very expensive way to remove cattle.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Emperor Norton's Imperial Politics Megathread
« Reply #6464 on: April 10, 2014, 12:55:06 pm »

LW: Why's that hypocrisy? The guy didn't pay up, he's getting removed, someone else is moving in (as far as I'm informed). If we don't care about the turtles, we have to approve of the government's actions; if we do, we can only criticize that they'll suffer from the solar power plant, not that the guy who's harming them right now is being disowned to pay for his debt.
And I believe the guy's son (it wasn't the guy himself) was not arrested for filming the police, but for being in an area he wasn't allowed to enter.
The man payed up until they started telling him he couldn't go into Gold Butte because it endangered tortoises, whilst simultaneously allowing the energy corps. to take over and undertake their project which would destroy the juvenile tortoise populations. I'm erking away from making judgement on whether the US state is right to seize his cattle (completely disregarding HOW they went about it, and ignoring their other barbaric actions) until they sort out the shit on whether the fed or the state law has precedence, because I've heard two sides scream they're right and I don't see why either is.
In regards to the guy's son, it's just like in OWS how all those people were arrested for anything whilst they happened to be filming police officers. Or indeed, there are websites dedicated to the amount of times police do this. I take what they charge people they've beaten up with a pinch of salt.

Still, it seems like a very expensive way to remove cattle.
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