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Bay12 Presidential Focus Polling 2016

Ted Cruz
- 7 (6.5%)
Rick Santorum
- 16 (14.8%)
Michelle Bachmann
- 13 (12%)
Chris Christie
- 23 (21.3%)
Rand Paul
- 49 (45.4%)

Total Members Voted: 107


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Author Topic: Bay12 Election Night Watch Party  (Read 584338 times)

Descan

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Re: Emperor Norton's Imperial Politics Megathread
« Reply #6570 on: April 24, 2014, 11:12:12 am »

They might be confused on which liberal you mean, though ;P

I know I do sometimes. Never entirely sure what kind of liberal someone is talkin' about. :I

fuggin' neo-liberals.
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Owlbread

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Re: Emperor Norton's Imperial Politics Megathread
« Reply #6571 on: April 24, 2014, 11:20:22 am »

They might be confused on which liberal you mean, though ;P

I know I do sometimes. Never entirely sure what kind of liberal someone is talkin' about. :I

fuggin' neo-liberals.

Yes. Though at times American Liberals really get on my wick too, bloody pinkos. Besides the reasons in that video there I'm also generally frustrated by the fact that they're seldom radical enough.

Why can't we call ourselves Socialists anymore? Why do we have to use that god-awful expression "Progressive"? It just makes me think of Oliver Stone and granola bars.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2014, 11:22:06 am by Owlbread »
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scriver

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Re: Emperor Norton's Imperial Politics Megathread
« Reply #6572 on: April 24, 2014, 11:27:10 am »

I call myself both socialist and progressive.
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Owlbread

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Re: Emperor Norton's Imperial Politics Megathread
« Reply #6573 on: April 24, 2014, 11:30:39 am »

I call myself both socialist and progressive.

I'm fine with that, that works. We're both Europeans though. I just wish more Americans would have the courage to call themselves Socialist.
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mainiac

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Re: Emperor Norton's Imperial Politics Megathread
« Reply #6574 on: April 24, 2014, 11:32:08 am »

Why can't we call ourselves Socialists anymore? Why do we have to use that god-awful expression "Progressive"? It just makes me think of Oliver Stone and granola bars.

While most socialists are progressives (not all look at Cuba) most progressives in the US are not socialists.
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Ancient Babylonian god of RAEG
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
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kaijyuu

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Re: Emperor Norton's Imperial Politics Megathread
« Reply #6575 on: April 24, 2014, 11:35:39 am »

I'm an anarcho-collectivist, if online litmus tests can be believed.
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For, in order that men should resist injustice, something more is necessary than that they should think injustice unpleasant. They must think injustice absurd; above all, they must think it startling. They must retain the violence of a virgin astonishment. When the pessimist looks at any infamy, it is to him, after all, only a repetition of the infamy of existence. But the optimist sees injustice as something discordant and unexpected, and it stings him into action.

Owlbread

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Re: Emperor Norton's Imperial Politics Megathread
« Reply #6576 on: April 24, 2014, 11:46:37 am »

While most socialists are progressives (not all look at Cuba) most progressives in the US are not socialists.

So as a non-Socialist progressive (I presume), you disagree that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole?
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mainiac

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Re: Emperor Norton's Imperial Politics Megathread
« Reply #6577 on: April 24, 2014, 12:01:14 pm »

So as a non-Socialist progressive (I presume), you disagree that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole?

I'm a mixed markey socialist myself, I think some sectors should be nationalized while others shouldn't.  But that's what a non-Socialist progressive would believe, yes.
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Ancient Babylonian god of RAEG
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Emperor Norton's Imperial Politics Megathread
« Reply #6578 on: April 24, 2014, 12:44:11 pm »

I'd quite like to visit Georgia I think. Just to confuse everyone with my simultaneous overtly Leftist/Socialist tendencies, atheism and my support for gun rights and loathing of Liberals... and possibly a desire for them to secede from the Union.
Eh, most people from conservative areas understand that Europeans are often socialists. The expression that they should be their nation would probably be taken surprisingly well by good ol' boys and very badly by black southerners, and I doubt I need to explain why. Secessionist fervor is intrinsically linked to racism here.
Yes. Though at times American Liberals really get on my wick too, bloody pinkos. Besides the reasons in that video there I'm also generally frustrated by the fact that they're seldom radical enough.
Sometimes we have to chose between actually making positive changes or being ideologically pure. Because we sure as hell can't let the Republicans have an inch. That guy is a dismissive moron who doesn't understand the reality of politics in this nation. We should work hard to support left-wing candidates where we can, but when it comes down to the wire we also have to bite the bullet to keep the real monsters out of power.
Quote
Why can't we call ourselves Socialists anymore? Why do we have to use that god-awful expression "Progressive"? It just makes me think of Oliver Stone and granola bars.
It all depends on what you're talking about. You'll actually find a lot of people in the US who think that "socialism", in the vague sense, is a good thing, but very few actually identify with the socialist movement. As for progressive, it's because that's what most left people in the US really are. We are the New Progressives (the Old Progressives sometimes had...issues when it came to things like human rights), and while that sometimes overlaps with socialism it does not always do so.
So as a non-Socialist progressive (I presume), you disagree that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole?

I'm a mixed markey socialist myself, I think some sectors should be nationalized while others shouldn't.  But that's what a non-Socialist progressive would believe, yes.
Agreed. In truth, I'm halfway to being a socialist myself, but collective ownership is only good in certain contexts. I would definitely like to see an explosion in workplace democracy, however.
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BurnedToast

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Re: Emperor Norton's Imperial Politics Megathread
« Reply #6579 on: April 24, 2014, 12:54:33 pm »

If the problem is an economic one, the obvious solution appears to be to switch to European-style school financing - not finance the local school via local taxes, but all the schools via all the taxes taxes from everyone.

This would make sense, and I've wondered why we didn't do it this way to begin with.

But it's never going to happen. The wealthy aren't going to spend more and/or decrease the education funding for their children just so "the poors" can get a decent education and have a fair shot at life leech off them and suck the government teat.

In fact they've been trying to do the exact opposite and use private school vouchers to completely destroy the public school system for at least a decade now.

Letting people take guns in bar seems like a stupid idea though...

If someone is going to go in there and rob the place or commit a crime, they probably won't care about the sign outside the door saying "no guns allowed". That said, this law wouldn't make dealing with bar fights any easier.

The problem is not people who go in with the intent to rob the place, obviously, we can't stop them with a sign (if only it were so easy). The problem is nominally law-abiding people who get pissed off for whatever petty reason and decide to shoot someone.

Bars are just a particularly bad place, I really don't see how even the most ardent gun supporter can think that's a good idea.
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SealyStar

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Re: Emperor Norton's Imperial Politics Megathread
« Reply #6580 on: April 24, 2014, 03:18:23 pm »

The thing about letting the South secede is that it works to northern liberals' political benefit by all but guaranteeing them continuous control of the House, Senate, and especially presidency (once we get rid of the right-wing southerners), the entire north's economic benefit of not subsidizing the almost entire south's tax deficits (IIRC), and to the right-wing white conservative southerners' benefit by giving them a place to implement their ass-backwards policies freely.

The problem is that we have to sacrifice the protection and, in all likelihood, basic civil liberties of women, minorities, LGBT people, and non-Christians in the newly created nation of Dumbfuckistan.
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Sheb

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Re: Emperor Norton's Imperial Politics Megathread
« Reply #6581 on: April 24, 2014, 03:20:38 pm »

By the way, did you guys know that the Democrats actually won the last house elections? That is, they got more vote. But lost the House. Yay gerrymandering!
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Emperor Norton's Imperial Politics Megathread
« Reply #6582 on: April 24, 2014, 03:29:10 pm »

The thing about letting the South secede is that it works to northern liberals' political benefit by all but guaranteeing them continuous control of the House, Senate, and especially presidency (once we get rid of the right-wing southerners), the entire north's economic benefit of not subsidizing the almost entire south's tax deficits (IIRC), and to the right-wing white conservative southerners' benefit by giving them a place to implement their ass-backwards policies freely.

The problem is that we have to sacrifice the protection and, in all likelihood, basic civil liberties of women, minorities, LGBT people, and non-Christians in the newly created nation of Dumbfuckistan.
I hope you are able to realize how the way you've gone about saying this is just a little bit offensive to Southerners. While the conservative stronghold down here is a problem, they're only a part (not even really a majority) of our society. Furthermore, I'm getting really sick and tired of people acting like my home is a problem to be gotten rid of.
By the way, did you guys know that the Democrats actually won the last house elections? That is, they got more vote. But lost the House. Yay gerrymandering!
An unfortunate reality until the use of algorithmic districting becomes commonplace. But even so, it will only buy the Republicans an election cycle or two until the demographic shift catches up with them, hard.
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mainiac

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Re: Emperor Norton's Imperial Politics Megathread
« Reply #6583 on: April 24, 2014, 03:30:11 pm »

By the way, did you guys know that the Democrats actually won the last house elections? That is, they got more vote. But lost the House. Yay gerrymandering!

Yuuuuuuuup.  People stayed home in 2010 and then surprise surprise they get politicians who dilute their vote.
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Ancient Babylonian god of RAEG
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"Don't tell me what you value. Show me your budget and I will tell you what you value"
« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
mainiac is always a little sarcastic, at least.

Owlbread

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Re: Emperor Norton's Imperial Politics Megathread
« Reply #6584 on: April 24, 2014, 03:31:23 pm »

I hope you are able to realize how the way you've gone about saying this is just a little bit offensive to Southerners. While the conservative stronghold down here is a problem, they're only a part (not even really a majority) of our society. Furthermore, I'm getting really sick and tired of people acting like my home is a problem to be gotten rid of.

Embrace it, MSH. Embrace the grievances and consider secession. You know it makes sense.

But I think the whole "the South are inbred redneck bible thumping gun loving far-right hillbillies" attitude is pretty disgraceful. Very, very unhelpful and I can only see scenarios where, joking aside, some groups of Southerners will feel even more distant and alienated from the North. I do view the attitude some people have towards the South (you know, the ones that cringe when they hear a Southern accent) as out and out prejudice.

I mean, when even a fellow Progressive like MSH feels like people are treating his home as a problem to be gotten rid of that's just not a good state of affairs.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2014, 03:36:13 pm by Owlbread »
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