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Bay12 Presidential Focus Polling 2016

Ted Cruz
- 7 (6.5%)
Rick Santorum
- 16 (14.8%)
Michelle Bachmann
- 13 (12%)
Chris Christie
- 23 (21.3%)
Rand Paul
- 49 (45.4%)

Total Members Voted: 107


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Author Topic: Bay12 Election Night Watch Party  (Read 470231 times)

smeeprocket

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Re: Bay12 Election Night Watch Party
« Reply #9855 on: December 18, 2014, 11:40:35 pm »

Actually, yes. The Pope does meet with every US president in the underground bunker where they have lived ever since Abraham Lincon (and every president after him once they finished their terms) was turned, feasting on the souls of their former constituents to extend their unholy life.

This is true. It's science.

More parties muddies the waters. ANy attempt to get a third party (and I should know, I voted green during Bush Jrs first run for office,) siphons votes away from the side that the voter would be most likely to sympathize with. It's counter productive.
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Darvi

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Re: Bay12 Election Night Watch Party
« Reply #9856 on: December 18, 2014, 11:58:53 pm »

More parties muddies the waters. ANy attempt to get a third party (and I should know, I voted green during Bush Jrs first run for office,) siphons votes away from the side that the voter would be most likely to sympathize with. It's counter productive.
Again, that's a problem with FPTP, and not the third parties.
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Angle

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Re: Bay12 Election Night Watch Party
« Reply #9857 on: December 19, 2014, 12:20:35 am »

I think he means that that's why he supports IRV or score voting or some such. He could have been clearer about that, though.
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Reelya

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Re: Bay12 Election Night Watch Party
« Reply #9858 on: December 19, 2014, 02:18:14 am »

Actually, yes. The Pope does meet with every US president in the underground bunker where they have lived ever since Abraham Lincon (and every president after him once they finished their terms) was turned, feasting on the souls of their former constituents to extend their unholy life.

This is true. It's science.

More parties muddies the waters. ANy attempt to get a third party (and I should know, I voted green during Bush Jrs first run for office,) siphons votes away from the side that the voter would be most likely to sympathize with. It's counter productive.

Alternative Vote fully explained with cute animals. It's just a better system and allows more parties without the spoiler effect. There are other systems that are arguably better that Alternative Vote. But it has the advantage of being simple to understand for voters and easy to implement as a replacement for First Past The Post voting (which is what America uses and is basically just the worst voting system possible).
« Last Edit: December 19, 2014, 02:20:24 am by Reelya »
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misko27

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Re: Bay12 Election Night Watch Party
« Reply #9859 on: December 19, 2014, 03:13:03 am »

I spent too long on this. But anyway, clearly I haven't properly explained myself enough, and no one can answer me until they know where I stand. Yell at me if you wish, but don't go with "You just don't understand". Its just depressing is what it is, I hate hearing that. I hope no one is offended also, I'm not trying to call you all bad or something. I'm just saying I see problems, prove me wrong if you want.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2014, 03:53:46 am by misko27 »
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MetalSlimeHunt

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smjjames

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Re: Bay12 Election Night Watch Party
« Reply #9861 on: December 19, 2014, 08:52:10 am »

@misko: Well, it's just that the third party candidates provide an alternative and in the current voting system, you might as well be throwing away your vote or splitting the vote
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Rez

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Re: Bay12 Election Night Watch Party
« Reply #9862 on: December 19, 2014, 10:17:53 am »

In the current voting and political system, you might as well throw away your vote.
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Angle

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Re: Bay12 Election Night Watch Party
« Reply #9863 on: December 19, 2014, 12:46:08 pm »

The thing isn't that we want a third party, it's that we want a lot of third parties. Right now, there are some things that the people in power just don't care about and won't pursue - like campaign finance reform, fighting corruption in congress, environmentalism, ending the police state, etc. We really need these these things, and many of them are even things people from both parties can agree on. But we're so divided on social issues, that there's not much that can be done. IRV would allow you to cast your first vote for, say, the Anti-corruption party without your vote being potentially wasted.

And yes, it'd be difficult to implement, but the majority of the fight would be political - once you get through that, actually reprogramming the voting machines would be a snap. Most of them already have the ability to run RV already anyway.

And as for addressing the divisions in America - well, that I have little to no advice for you on. Honestly, I think the root of the problem is that everybody listens to their own news, and interacts very little with anyone else veiwpoint. And yes, I think that the conservatives have this MUCH worse, but just cause they think the reverse doesn't make me wrong.

Edit: Though actually, now that I think about it, the thing I've been working on, Agora, could be used to link up the various online communities and force them interact. It'd be difficult, but it's possible.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2014, 01:21:10 pm by Angle »
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smjjames

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Re: Bay12 Election Night Watch Party
« Reply #9864 on: December 19, 2014, 12:52:26 pm »

Exactly angle, 'third party' in the political context just means any party that isn't the main two. Be it the Greens, Libertarians Socialists, or even the Prohibitionist party.

Yes the Prohibitionist party is a thing that exists.

Basically, it would be great if we had alternatives, but the two main parties aren't going to do anything that would reduce their power.
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Darvi

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Re: Bay12 Election Night Watch Party
« Reply #9865 on: December 19, 2014, 01:06:49 pm »

Don't patronize, I understand your arguments and what they refer to.
People have already given their answers to your demands. Either you do not, evidently, understand them, or I'll have to patronise you for ignoring what they said. Choose your poison.
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Angle

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Re: Bay12 Election Night Watch Party
« Reply #9866 on: December 19, 2014, 01:11:34 pm »

Eh, I for one am having a hard time following the conversation - I wonder if we could make things more intelligible somehow? Break them into nested bullet points or something?
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Darvi

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Re: Bay12 Election Night Watch Party
« Reply #9867 on: December 19, 2014, 01:13:21 pm »

It would help not to have obtrusive wall of texts.
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SalmonGod

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Re: Bay12 Election Night Watch Party
« Reply #9868 on: December 19, 2014, 01:19:23 pm »

Nothing is wrong with that at all! Not one damn thing! Except it doesn't tell me I want a third party, it tells me I want a democratic Tea Party (which I am divided on). The discussion is three-parties! And even if all that was true, the only example of a third party you seem to want is one that will get absorbed by the real parties after accomplishing its task.
I don't care if it happens through the rise of a third party or not, but something needs to happen.  I don't see what's wrong with discussing the possibility of increasing the viability of another party on the left, either for blowing off steam or for finding an actual means.  As far as I'm aware, no one here has said they'd be opposed to other means of bringing about equal change, or posited that a third party is the only possible way.  So I'm not sure why you're so worked up.

If the percentage of Americans who are so incredibly fed up with politicians that they don't vote bother voting at all actually voted, they could do whatever they damn well pleased. Politicians spring up to support damn-well-anything. It seems that you are demanding a party representing your interests appear, and then you will support them, but that seems pretty backwards.

I partially agree with you.  I think if people would stop giving in to the good cop/bad cop routine by the two major parties, that we could make a lot of things happen.  I do vote for third party candidates where they are actually present and I have the opportunity to be informed enough to be confident in them, but that's incredibly rare.  And I think it would be significant if others would do the same. 


This is more directed at SalmonGod, but this: America is divided, and more fundamentally then by just party right now.

You guys want, and let me be really blunt here, a more left-wing (Green? Socialist? whatever) government, not a more democratic government. A government that allows more room for your own viewpoint. I don't really know what happens in your vision to the 20% who are on the opposite fringe and dramatically disagree, but I imagine you don't think about them often; perhaps you deny their existence, importance or relevance, although they have all three. I often hear variations on "They will see the light" or an accusation of brainwashing, not explaining how anyone intends to fix them with politics while they have political weight. The other side thinks the exact same as the left does, for the exact same reasons. You (by which I mean America, but also Bay12) are just as divided as the parties, and the systems you've shown me would just lead to a congress dominated by the interests of the radicals both left and right, because that is where America is now, and that America is what a more democratic government will need to copy. And I don't think that America is one anyone wants to be in, especially not you guys.

No, it's not the same.  The Tea Party fringe on the right doesn't have the problem of being near-completely unrepresented.  I don't want congress dominated by radicals.  For one thing, most of the issues I list as being unrepresented are not even radical.  There is a huge portion of the voting population that wants tougher regulations on business, more progressive taxation, toning down of the police and military, stronger social programs and funding for infrastructure, etc.  These may not be majority, but they are widely held stances that should not be considered radical.  But there are almost no politicians representing those interests, and I that's a huge problem and dysfunction according to the way our government is supposed to operate, no matter how I look at it.

So I want to know what you suggest someone like me should do?  I have to give up sleep just to get a couple hours a day to myself.  I most certainly don't have the time to be actively engaged in campaigning for change.  I don't have money to throw at supporting my political interests.  I don't see any other way to engage in politics besides voting.  But politicians need to be supported by wealthy interests in order to be competitive with other politicians who are supported by wealthy interests (note that the Tea Party had this on their side).  The full spectrum of political thought that wealthy interests are willing to support is represented in the two major parties.  My political interests fall outside of that spectrum.  Reform is needed in order to change the laws that allow wealthy interests to control politics in this manner.  But the control of politics by wealthy interests prevents politicians from being elected who can enact such reform.

So what are these opportunities that you see?  Because I see nothing but a choice between continual slide into ruin or bitter conflict.
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Angle

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Re: Bay12 Election Night Watch Party
« Reply #9869 on: December 19, 2014, 01:30:46 pm »

I will also note, IRV tends heavily towards promoting centrist parties, cause those are usually the fastest to get 50% of the vote. Remember, under IRV, you have to get 50% of the vote at some point, including after the people who only listed a couple candidates have all been eliminated. So it's very unlikely to have a fringe party get elected. But they can at least run, and even if they won't get elected, they allow you to vote the way you want and communicate your displeasure. And over time, they can come to be major competitors to the big parties, and even force them to change their politics or be replaced. For example, if the democrats find themselves barely beating the greens, they'll adopt some of their policies in order to beat them.
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