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Bay12 Presidential Focus Polling 2016

Ted Cruz
- 7 (6.5%)
Rick Santorum
- 16 (14.8%)
Michelle Bachmann
- 13 (12%)
Chris Christie
- 23 (21.3%)
Rand Paul
- 49 (45.4%)

Total Members Voted: 107


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Author Topic: Bay12 Election Night Watch Party  (Read 420685 times)

misko27

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Re: Bay12 Election Night Watch Party
« Reply #9870 on: December 18, 2014, 05:43:03 pm »

It sounds like you want to pull the parties to the left, not make a new one. Your opposition is as much to the current electorate as to the current parties. Changing the parties is not radical (relatively speaking), and indeed it has happened, well, a lot. I agree with you on that, but I don't see a third party helping things. If the Tea Party became an actual party, do you think it would bolster, or weaken, the right-wing? The answer is weaken: Either the tea-party wins, and the right is condemned to being unacceptably farther to the right then even the current electorate, and thus will face irrelevance, or the more-likely scenario that the Republican party would win, and nothing would change except the Republican party being trashed by the Democrats for a cycle or two. So it is with the right, so it is with the left.


As for Fidel, I think Stephen Colbert hit the nail on the head: "Damn it Obama! The CIA was this close to assassinating Fidel Castro with the most deadly weapon they have: Time."
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smjjames

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Re: Bay12 Election Night Watch Party
« Reply #9871 on: December 18, 2014, 06:09:30 pm »

It sounds like you want to pull the parties to the left, not make a new one. Your opposition is as much to the current electorate as to the current parties. Changing the parties is not radical (relatively speaking), and indeed it has happened, well, a lot. I agree with you on that, but I don't see a third party helping things. If the Tea Party became an actual party, do you think it would bolster, or weaken, the right-wing? The answer is weaken: Either the tea-party wins, and the right is condemned to being unacceptably farther to the right then even the current electorate, and thus will face irrelevance, or the more-likely scenario that the Republican party would win, and nothing would change except the Republican party being trashed by the Democrats for a cycle or two. So it is with the right, so it is with the left.


As for Fidel, I think Stephen Colbert hit the nail on the head: "Damn it Obama! The CIA was this close to assassinating Fidel Castro with the most deadly weapon they have: Time."

Getting away from the far right crazies would be nice really.
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SalmonGod

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Re: Bay12 Election Night Watch Party
« Reply #9872 on: December 18, 2014, 06:53:06 pm »

It sounds like you want to pull the parties to the left, not make a new one. Your opposition is as much to the current electorate as to the current parties. Changing the parties is not radical (relatively speaking), and indeed it has happened, well, a lot. I agree with you on that, but I don't see a third party helping things. If the Tea Party became an actual party, do you think it would bolster, or weaken, the right-wing? The answer is weaken: Either the tea-party wins, and the right is condemned to being unacceptably farther to the right then even the current electorate, and thus will face irrelevance, or the more-likely scenario that the Republican party would win, and nothing would change except the Republican party being trashed by the Democrats for a cycle or two. So it is with the right, so it is with the left.

If that's how you wish to define it.  I still think it's not analogous to the Tea Party, because they don't have a problem with their interests being near-completely unrepresented.

But even so, the Tea Party has succeeded in pulling the Republicans further to the right.  If it takes a similar phenomenon to pull the Democrats further to the left where they should be (meaning on the left at all), thus bringing a fuller spectrum of representation to the public, then what would be wrong with that?

And I do disagree that my complaints are with the electorate.  On the environment you may be right, but not so much on the other issues I listed.  What I witness most often is that the American left vote for Democrats for two reasons.  First that they feel obligated to oppose the Republicans on social issues, and they see Democrats as the only means of doing so, even if it means forever losing ground on other issues.  Or they simply take the Democratic party at face value and believe that they represent those other issues also, unaware that their actions are most often otherwise.  These things are not the fault of the electorate, but of the successful marketing of the two parties as the only viable choices for everyone.

Is it really any wonder that voter participation is so low, when true representation is completely lacking on so many major issues?  This is why I don't vote.  If equal rights for minorities were the ONLY thing in the world I cared about, I would feel great voting for Democrats.  But it's not.  There are many other issues that I believe to be equally, if not more important.  So why would I put my official stamp of approval on record to hire someone to represent me who will actively work against my interests on half the things I care about?  Makes no sense.  And I know many other people who feel exactly the same way.
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Angle

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Re: Bay12 Election Night Watch Party
« Reply #9873 on: December 18, 2014, 07:36:24 pm »

Yeah, I have to agree with SalmonGod. The only reason I vote Democrat is because I'm absolutely terrified of the republicans. If there was an even remotely viable left alternative, I'd take it. IRV or score voting would be wonderful for me, because it means I could vote the way I wanted and not have to worry about accidentally putting the republicans in office.
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Reelya

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Re: Bay12 Election Night Watch Party
« Reply #9874 on: December 18, 2014, 11:03:55 pm »

It sounds like you want to pull the parties to the left, not make a new one. Your opposition is as much to the current electorate as to the current parties. Changing the parties is not radical (relatively speaking), and indeed it has happened, well, a lot. I agree with you on that, but I don't see a third party helping things. If the Tea Party became an actual party, do you think it would bolster, or weaken, the right-wing? The answer is weaken: Either the tea-party wins, and the right is condemned to being unacceptably farther to the right then even the current electorate, and thus will face irrelevance, or the more-likely scenario that the Republican party would win, and nothing would change except the Republican party being trashed by the Democrats for a cycle or two. So it is with the right, so it is with the left.


As for Fidel, I think Stephen Colbert hit the nail on the head: "Damn it Obama! The CIA was this close to assassinating Fidel Castro with the most deadly weapon they have: Time."

That's only true with the first-past-the-post voting system. With IRV / Alternative vote, having more choice on your own side of politics actually improves things because there will be more potential parties you're willing to get out and cast a vote for. So you might get e.g. a Republican and a Tea Party candidate in each electorate, and everyone on the right votes them 1, 2 or 2, 1. Similarly on the Left you might get a choice between Democrats, Socialist and Green parties, and you vote those all some combination of 1,2 and 3 on your ballot, with the right wingers right at the bottom.

So instant runoff voting gets rid of the "you split the vote" issue entirely.

In the House of Representatives, which is by districts, you will get about 90-95% of candidates from the big two parties winning, but you will get some independent voices in there too (perhaps with the deciding vote), but in the Senate things are proportional on a state basis, so you will see e.g. Greens senators and the like having a voice in politics.

Of course, the Republicans and Democrats will never implement a voting system that prevents the two main parties from having 100% control.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2014, 11:09:25 pm by Reelya »
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smeeprocket

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Re: Bay12 Election Night Watch Party
« Reply #9875 on: December 18, 2014, 11:40:35 pm »

Actually, yes. The Pope does meet with every US president in the underground bunker where they have lived ever since Abraham Lincon (and every president after him once they finished their terms) was turned, feasting on the souls of their former constituents to extend their unholy life.

This is true. It's science.

More parties muddies the waters. ANy attempt to get a third party (and I should know, I voted green during Bush Jrs first run for office,) siphons votes away from the side that the voter would be most likely to sympathize with. It's counter productive.
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Darvi

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Re: Bay12 Election Night Watch Party
« Reply #9876 on: December 18, 2014, 11:58:53 pm »

More parties muddies the waters. ANy attempt to get a third party (and I should know, I voted green during Bush Jrs first run for office,) siphons votes away from the side that the voter would be most likely to sympathize with. It's counter productive.
Again, that's a problem with FPTP, and not the third parties.
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Angle

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Re: Bay12 Election Night Watch Party
« Reply #9877 on: December 19, 2014, 12:20:35 am »

I think he means that that's why he supports IRV or score voting or some such. He could have been clearer about that, though.
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Reelya

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Re: Bay12 Election Night Watch Party
« Reply #9878 on: December 19, 2014, 02:18:14 am »

Actually, yes. The Pope does meet with every US president in the underground bunker where they have lived ever since Abraham Lincon (and every president after him once they finished their terms) was turned, feasting on the souls of their former constituents to extend their unholy life.

This is true. It's science.

More parties muddies the waters. ANy attempt to get a third party (and I should know, I voted green during Bush Jrs first run for office,) siphons votes away from the side that the voter would be most likely to sympathize with. It's counter productive.

Alternative Vote fully explained with cute animals. It's just a better system and allows more parties without the spoiler effect. There are other systems that are arguably better that Alternative Vote. But it has the advantage of being simple to understand for voters and easy to implement as a replacement for First Past The Post voting (which is what America uses and is basically just the worst voting system possible).
« Last Edit: December 19, 2014, 02:20:24 am by Reelya »
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misko27

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Re: Bay12 Election Night Watch Party
« Reply #9879 on: December 19, 2014, 03:13:03 am »

I spent too long on this. But anyway, clearly I haven't properly explained myself enough, and no one can answer me until they know where I stand. Yell at me if you wish, but don't go with "You just don't understand". Its just depressing is what it is, I hate hearing that. I hope no one is offended also, I'm not trying to call you all bad or something. I'm just saying I see problems, prove me wrong if you want.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2014, 03:53:46 am by misko27 »
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MetalSlimeHunt

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smjjames

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Re: Bay12 Election Night Watch Party
« Reply #9881 on: December 19, 2014, 08:52:10 am »

@misko: Well, it's just that the third party candidates provide an alternative and in the current voting system, you might as well be throwing away your vote or splitting the vote
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Rez

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Re: Bay12 Election Night Watch Party
« Reply #9882 on: December 19, 2014, 10:17:53 am »

In the current voting and political system, you might as well throw away your vote.
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Angle

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Re: Bay12 Election Night Watch Party
« Reply #9883 on: December 19, 2014, 12:46:08 pm »

The thing isn't that we want a third party, it's that we want a lot of third parties. Right now, there are some things that the people in power just don't care about and won't pursue - like campaign finance reform, fighting corruption in congress, environmentalism, ending the police state, etc. We really need these these things, and many of them are even things people from both parties can agree on. But we're so divided on social issues, that there's not much that can be done. IRV would allow you to cast your first vote for, say, the Anti-corruption party without your vote being potentially wasted.

And yes, it'd be difficult to implement, but the majority of the fight would be political - once you get through that, actually reprogramming the voting machines would be a snap. Most of them already have the ability to run RV already anyway.

And as for addressing the divisions in America - well, that I have little to no advice for you on. Honestly, I think the root of the problem is that everybody listens to their own news, and interacts very little with anyone else veiwpoint. And yes, I think that the conservatives have this MUCH worse, but just cause they think the reverse doesn't make me wrong.

Edit: Though actually, now that I think about it, the thing I've been working on, Agora, could be used to link up the various online communities and force them interact. It'd be difficult, but it's possible.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2014, 01:21:10 pm by Angle »
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smjjames

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Re: Bay12 Election Night Watch Party
« Reply #9884 on: December 19, 2014, 12:52:26 pm »

Exactly angle, 'third party' in the political context just means any party that isn't the main two. Be it the Greens, Libertarians Socialists, or even the Prohibitionist party.

Yes the Prohibitionist party is a thing that exists.

Basically, it would be great if we had alternatives, but the two main parties aren't going to do anything that would reduce their power.
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