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Author Topic: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!  (Read 1368729 times)

Ukrainian Ranger

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Re: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!
« Reply #19035 on: August 11, 2015, 12:18:27 am »

Kot You said that you hate me. It is even worse than accusing.  Before that you hinted that my nation is nation of traitors

Volynhya massacre is one of the darkest pages of Ukrainian history and Ukrainians did commit numerous war crimes. But cruelty of that was exaggerated by Soviet propaganda(BTW, I don't think that NKVD agents were unable to act as AK or UPA few times to ignite the situation) and as I said in PM, if you think that AK and other polish self-defence units were white and fluffy - You are wrong. Ukrainians killed more civilian Poles then vice versa only because of demographics.

There are zero actual proofs that it was a planned and coordinated genocide and not usual situation when guerilla warfare escalates in this kind of bloody shit. Even disciplined armies of democratic countries do war crimes, partisans are way more prone to this. Especially when they have seen examples of German and Soviet crimes.

No independent court ever linked Bandera or any of UPA leaders to it and this means it is nothing but empty words. There are no proofs about actual orders issued to UPA squads. Lets assume it is true. I will tell you a big secret, UPA considered to be heroes in Ukraine because they waged a war for more than one decade against Soviet regime, not because they killed Poles. When some Ukrainian says "UPA soldiers are heroes. I want to be like him" he doesn't mean  "Hey, we should kill some Poles!"

But if you prefer to live in a simple world of black-white history, historical myths, one sided opinions and decades old propaganda, I can't help it.


Ispil
Don't worry, I understand that it is a Polish national tragedy and will never disrespect it even when I am annoyed. 
« Last Edit: August 11, 2015, 12:44:49 am by Ukrainian Ranger »
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War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.

Ukrainian Ranger

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Re: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!
« Reply #19036 on: August 11, 2015, 12:33:48 am »

Bandera is a controversial person and I can't say that I have a 100% set opinion on him.

The funniest part that he has nothing to do with UPA because he was in German concentration time when it was formed (not counting some conspiracy theories). Before the war he was and a leader of nationalist terrorist organization that became a basis of future guerilla. It wasn't like modern kind of terrorism that kills random people. His organization targeted politicians. Is it good? Nope. But I am not sure that Ukrainans had many more ways to protect their rights in midwar Poland.

Peasants who took weapons and waged a hopeless war to defend their homes are heroes in my mind and I don't take insults directed to them lightly. Some of them were maniacs and war criminals but good luck finding any army without that kind of people.
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War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.

Kot

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Re: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!
« Reply #19037 on: August 11, 2015, 01:31:22 am »

Kot You said that you hate me. It is even worse than accusing.
You know that the closest thing I could compare you to is a Neo-Nazi? No offense though.
stuff
I never said that AK didin't kill Ukrainians. They did (notice that children and women survived, unlike those during Ukrainian attacks, the "crucified children" thing I was reffering to was an act of nailing a dead child to a door to resemble an White Eagle, the Polish national symbol), but those were rare cases, as the whole "Guerilla war" thing never really took place. Only the intensive fighting in the Chełm region lasting from March/April 1944 until June/July 1944 had the features of a guerilla war. On the other territories where the Polish-Ukrainian conflict went on during the German occupation the Polish underground was too weak to defend Poles against Ukrainian attacks, let alone to engage in regular warfare against pro-Bandera partisan units. They also fought Germans and Russians as partizans too, but for some reason Germans didin't really attack UPA. Ukrainians started it, not them. Also, considering that it was exaggerated by Soviet propaganda when a good bunch of independent research was made seems to be... well, nationalism. And, ironically, the only reason that Ukrainians didin't murder more Poles was simply because there was no Poles left, Soviets or Germans took them already. From the initial (at the time of purges) ~200,000 population half got slaughtered and other half had to escape.
more stuff
Sure, there are very little proof (but there is, as there is evidence that Dymytro Klyachkivski, head-commander of UPA-North ordered the genocides on his area, possibly not by himself) that it was a coordinated genocide, but on the other hand it's hard to belive that 100,000 people could be killed without any organization (consider that every village could have 200-500 people at most) and it's accepted that OUN-B was anxious to cover up the traces of the massacres and to “democratize” the organization through a new political platform — the Ukrainian Supreme Liberation Council. Most probably the aim of the Council was to avoid embarrassment in the eyes of the West, which as early as 1943 was recognized as a potential ally in the struggle against the USSR for the establishment of an independent Ukrainian state on all “ethnically Ukrainian” territories.
courts
Mykola Lebed, mentioned Dymytro Klyachkivski, The rest is covered up (do you really think that they couldn't just destroy the orders? I mean, that seems like a good idea when you're a "guerilla"), but there are some clues around, like the posters and leaflets that were convicing Ukrainians to kill Poles. While localized concentrations of those could be explained by local printing, having the same ones all around the area doesn't really fit.
The funniest part that he has nothing to do with UPA because he was in German concentration time when it was formed (not counting some conspiracy theories). Before the war he was and a leader of nationalist terrorist organization that became a basis of future guerilla. It wasn't like modern kind of terrorism that kills random people. His organization targeted politicians. Is it good? Nope. But I am not sure that Ukrainans had many more ways to protect their rights in midwar Poland.
He initially collaborated with Nazis to create an army (also later on, when Soviets came), he wanted to have an armed uprising as early as late 1939 (didin't work out, though). Also, he was in concentration camp when UPA was formed, but that didin't stop him from attending a meeting of OUN in Kraków earlier in the year, some parts of which I quote further below.
Peasants who took weapons and waged a hopeless war to defend their homes are heroes in my mind and I don't take insults directed to them lightly. Some of them were maniacs and war criminals but good luck finding any army without that kind of people.
Quote from: Wikipedia
In May 1941 at a meeting in Kraków the leadership of Bandera's OUN faction adopted the program "Struggle and action of OUN during the war" (Ukrainian: "Боротьба й діяльність ОУН під час війни") which outlined the plans for activities at the onset of the Nazi invasion of the Soviet Union and the western territories of the Ukrainian SSR. Section G of that document –"Directives for organizing the life of the state during the first days" (Ukrainian: "Вказівки на перші дні організації державного життя") outline activity of the Bandera followers during summer 1944. In the subsection of "Minority Policy" the OUN-B ordered: "Moskali, Poles, and Jews that are hostile to us must be exterminated in this struggle, especially those who would resist our regime: deport them to their own lands, importantly: destroy their intelligentsia that may be in the positions of power ... Jews must be isolated, removed from governmental positions in order to prevent sabotage, those who are deemed necessary may only work with an overseer... Jewish assimilation is not possible."
Quote from: morewikipedia
Later in June Yaroslav Stetsko sent to Bandera a report in which he indicated - "We are creating a militia which would help to remove the Jews and protect the population." Leaflets spread in the name of Bandera in the same year called for the "destruction" of ""Moscow", Poles, Hungarians and Jewry. In 1941-1942 while Bandera was cooperating with the Germans, OUN members did take part in anti-Jewish actions. German police at 1941 reported that "fanatic" Bandera followers, organised in small groups were "extraordinarily active" against Jews and communists.
(Why I am even using wikipedia, it's clearly a Soviet propaganda device!)
Peasants who took weapons and waged a hopeless war to defend their homes are heroes in my mind and I don't take insults directed to them lightly. Some of them were maniacs and war criminals but good luck finding any army without that kind of people.
That sounds really like what those neo-nazis guys say. After all, every army has bad people, right? It was the SS who commited the crimes, right? Wehrmacht had no idea! (Don't take me wrong, Germans defended their land, followed orders, and some of them were pretty cool guys too, but that doesn't make them any better. As always though, generalization is bad, as there were Germans who fought Nazis and there were also Ukrainians who helped Poles during Volhynia).

But if you prefer to live in a simple world of black-white history, historical myths, one sided opinions and decades old propaganda, I can't help it.
A crow told raven that it's black. Or was it the other way around?
Eh.
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Kot finishes his morning routine in the same way he always does, by burning a scale replica of Saint Basil's Cathedral on the windowsill.

Ukrainian Ranger

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Re: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!
« Reply #19038 on: August 11, 2015, 01:48:08 am »

*Reads the wall of text, considers answering* Nope. Because you want to fight. I'll let you think that you won. I expressed my opinion for bystanders and it should be enough.  Sapienti sat. Discussing with a guy who plain insulted my nation without any good reason is counter-productive by default.
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War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.

Kot

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Re: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!
« Reply #19039 on: August 11, 2015, 01:55:39 am »

*Reads the wall of text, considers answering* Nope. Because you want to fight. I'll let you think that you won. I expressed my opinion for bystanders and it should be enough.  Sapienti sat. Discussing with a guy who plain insulted my nation without any good reason is counter-productive by default.
You consider that expressing your opinion publicly is something you should do, but when I do it, you consider that I want to fight with you. You brought it into public and I consider my right to respond to it. Take it as you want, I have more important things (like "art" or actually going to sleep) to do.
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Kot finishes his morning routine in the same way he always does, by burning a scale replica of Saint Basil's Cathedral on the windowsill.

Antsan

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Re: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!
« Reply #19040 on: August 11, 2015, 02:40:15 am »

Which might be understandable, given that the topic is genocide.
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MarcAFK

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Re: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!
« Reply #19041 on: August 11, 2015, 02:43:42 am »

Not sure how we got from destroying cheese and insufficient availability of Russian military turbines. But ok.
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They're nearly as bad as badgers. Build a couple of anti-buzzard SAM sites marksdwarf towers and your fortress will look like Baghdad in 2003 from all the aerial bolt spam. You waste a lot of ammo and everything is covered in unslightly exploded buzzard bits and broken bolts.

Antsan

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Re: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!
« Reply #19042 on: August 11, 2015, 03:00:46 am »

Got accused of crucifying little boys in bay12 forum game OOC thread. I facepalmed so hard. Propaganda works
That's how. Non-sequitur.
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Helgoland

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Re: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!
« Reply #19043 on: August 11, 2015, 04:28:09 am »

So cheap efforts to fix the problem upfront (like instituting tarrifs in 2010 to pay off Greek debts)
That wouldn't have been cheap at all, that would have been the death of the Union. This is what I mean when I say you think too much like an economist and too little like a politician.
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Arguably he's already a progressive, just one in the style of an enlightened Kaiser.
I'm going to do the smart thing here and disengage. This isn't a hill I paticularly care to die on.

Ukrainian Ranger

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Re: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!
« Reply #19044 on: August 11, 2015, 06:30:06 am »

Got accused of crucifying little boys in bay12 forum game OOC thread. I facepalmed so hard. Propaganda works
That's how. Non-sequitur.
This post is a result of my mistake. I assumed him being Russian because

1) Kot has a nickname of slavic origin (cat) and I while Ukrainian word for cat is different I forgot that other slavik language may use the same word as Russians
2) Attacked my nationality without any good reason
3) He posted this:
On the other hand, what else could I expect from Ukrainian, or at least someone who claims to be one.
after I switched sides in the game that has two competing teams. It is Russian style to attack people like that. If this was a joke, it was a bad joke
4) Then this happened:
It is a game guys :) I think my decision will add a fresh stream to it. Do not focus on winning(c) too hard. 

PS. Kot, I am Ukrainian, furthermore I am a Ukrainian nationalist. Enjoy this fact.
I do. This kinda makes me hate you for real, forgiving crucified children isin't an easy thing.
But, but, but whatever. Let's not bring real war into fictional war, as people already said.
That only confirmed my assumption that he is Russian because it is what their "propaganded" brains tend to produce nowadays.


I was wrong. And I hope that there are few Poles like him, else we need to dig another line of trenches on the Western border, just in case.
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War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.

Antsan

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Re: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!
« Reply #19045 on: August 11, 2015, 06:45:20 am »

What I wanted to say was: The way we got here as via non-sequitur. The current topic has no relation to the previous topics in this thread. The quoted post is where the current line of discussion begins.

I really don't care about your nationalism or your paranoia about how everyone who doesn't like your nationalism supposedly wants to invade the Ukraine.
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LordSlowpoke

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Re: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!
« Reply #19046 on: August 11, 2015, 06:48:44 am »

* LordSlowpoke revs up vk 1602

i'm gonna conquer me some ukros, choo choo
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Sergarr

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Re: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!
« Reply #19047 on: August 11, 2015, 07:05:17 am »

I guess that Russian propaganda about anti-Ukrainian Poles wasn't all propaganda.

I also read from the same source that they were forming some anti-Banderite patrols on the border. Now I wonder if that part wasn't propaganda, too.
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._.

LordSlowpoke

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Re: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!
« Reply #19048 on: August 11, 2015, 07:11:05 am »

guy i used to work with was from the east of there, i think lublin he said? it was a while ago but he said that speaking with that specific ukrainian accent was a surefire way to get harassed

i can't say i'm 100% sure that's an anti-ukrainian thing or general xenophobia but here you go
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smjjames

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Re: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!
« Reply #19049 on: August 11, 2015, 08:26:25 am »

The heck on the poll??? If there is a joke there, I don't get it.
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