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Author Topic: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!  (Read 1124745 times)

Sergarr

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Re: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!
« Reply #19125 on: August 14, 2015, 10:41:13 am »

Don't take this the wrong way, but that's a very, um, Russian reaction to such information.
Very Western, too, given that Right Sector has been doing so for the majority of the last year, with very little fuss.
- Ukraine doesn't exactly count as Western
I was speaking about the reaction. You labeled my reaction to Polish paramilitaries as very Russian, when the West has had the same reaction to Ukrainian paramilitaries, too. Double think much?
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!
« Reply #19126 on: August 14, 2015, 10:52:31 am »

Unless he did wipe out one of the tribes he's not genocidal, he's just a ruthless killer of his enemies. Necklacing his enemies, ordering the shellhouse massacre or what name you, these do not surmount to genocide - I'm splitting straws but they have to be split. A genocide is apart from regular crimes in that the destruction it causes is existential.
So would you say that Srebrenica massacre wasn't a genocidal act, seeing how Bosnian Muslims still exist?
Hmm? I didn't suggest that at all, a genocidal act need not be successful to be so. Mandela's spat of torturing and massacring was done for their political affiliations, there wasn't an attempt to existentially destroy a peoples (Boer bants aside)

Helgoland

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Re: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!
« Reply #19127 on: August 14, 2015, 11:18:15 am »

I was speaking about the reaction. You labeled my reaction to Polish paramilitaries as very Russian, when the West has had the same reaction to Ukrainian paramilitaries, too. Double think much?
I... don't remember anyone being glad that Right Sector would enable Ukraine to do cross-border operations while maintaining plausible deniability. The most that was heard around here - and even this is far from universally accepted - was that the Ukrainian militias could help Ukraine, which has a poorly trained and badly equipped military, hold out against Russian agression, which is very dissimilar to what you said. And come to think of it, nobody would have phrased this thought using the word 'assets'.
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Arguably he's already a progressive, just one in the style of an enlightened Kaiser.
I'm going to do the smart thing here and disengage. This isn't a hill I paticularly care to die on.

Sergarr

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Re: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!
« Reply #19128 on: August 14, 2015, 11:39:02 am »

The "cross-border" in case of Right Sector is "Ukraine-Russia" border, or specifically, Crimean one. Since at least some of Right Sector right now are in semi-opposition to the current government, any of their actions in Crimea can be explained as their own initiative, hence "deniable assets".

I guess I was wrong when I've said that this view is very Western.
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Helgoland

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Re: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!
« Reply #19129 on: August 14, 2015, 01:17:49 pm »

Ya, inner-Ukrainian operations don't count as "cross-border". 'Nuff said.
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Arguably he's already a progressive, just one in the style of an enlightened Kaiser.
I'm going to do the smart thing here and disengage. This isn't a hill I paticularly care to die on.

Sergarr

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Re: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!
« Reply #19130 on: August 14, 2015, 01:21:23 pm »

Ya, inner-Ukrainian operations don't count as "cross-border". 'Nuff said.
But Crimea isn't inner Ukraine... it's Russia. Duh.
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Culise

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Re: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!
« Reply #19131 on: August 14, 2015, 02:40:04 pm »

Ya, inner-Ukrainian operations don't count as "cross-border". 'Nuff said.
But Crimea isn't inner Ukraine... it's Russia. Duh.
De facto due to military force, yes.  Very few countries recognize that border, however.  The US, Europe, Japan, and the usual suspects have actively rejected the Russian annexation of Crimea.  China and India have both been more ambiguous, but both have also shied away from formal recognition and active support.  Only a handful of countries - Afghanistan, Cuba, Syria, Nicaragua, Venezuela, North Korea, Abkhazia, South Ossetia, Nagorno-Karabakh, and Transnistria - have definitely recognized the Russian annexation.  Maybe Belarus if you interpret his words right; I would suspect Lukashenko is a bit careful about saying anything that could come back to bite him, hand-delivered by little green men, if the mood between Minsk and Moscow ever shifts again.  In other words, as far as most countries are concerned, including those people themselves, it isn't a cross-border activity de jure. 

Now, if you had Right Sector invading Rostov or something, that'd be something else, but it's rather patently obviously *not* a "duh" situation, and its rather disingenuous for you to assert it unequivocally as such.  It's as "cross-border" as Ukrainian operations against the DNR (to borrow the tongue-in-cheek comment from earlier) or vice versa, and distinctly less so than, say, Russian operations against Crimea. :P
« Last Edit: August 14, 2015, 02:45:50 pm by Culise »
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!
« Reply #19132 on: August 14, 2015, 03:04:23 pm »

Europ thred poll on crimea status when?

Guardian G.I.

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Sergarr

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Re: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!
« Reply #19134 on: August 14, 2015, 03:26:05 pm »

Ya, inner-Ukrainian operations don't count as "cross-border". 'Nuff said.
But Crimea isn't inner Ukraine... it's Russia. Duh.
De facto due to military force, yes.  Very few countries recognize that border, however.  The US, Europe, Japan, and the usual suspects have actively rejected the Russian annexation of Crimea.  China and India have both been more ambiguous, but both have also shied away from formal recognition and active support.  Only a handful of countries - Afghanistan, Cuba, Syria, Nicaragua, Venezuela, North Korea, Abkhazia, South Ossetia, Nagorno-Karabakh, and Transnistria - have definitely recognized the Russian annexation.  Maybe Belarus if you interpret his words right; I would suspect Lukashenko is a bit careful about saying anything that could come back to bite him, hand-delivered by little green men, if the mood between Minsk and Moscow ever shifts again.  In other words, as far as most countries are concerned, including those people themselves, it isn't a cross-border activity de jure. 

Now, if you had Right Sector invading Rostov or something, that'd be something else, but it's rather patently obviously *not* a "duh" situation, and its rather disingenuous for you to assert it unequivocally as such.  It's as "cross-border" as Ukrainian operations against the DNR (to borrow the tongue-in-cheek comment from earlier) or vice versa, and distinctly less so than, say, Russian operations against Crimea. :P
Right Sector would-be operations on Crimean territory would be de-facto cross-border operations because there's a border between Crimea and Ukraine staffed by Russian and Ukrainian border guards, respectively. It won't magically turn into "inner Ukraine" operations because of what other countries think about legitimacy.
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Ukrainian Ranger

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Re: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!
« Reply #19135 on: August 14, 2015, 03:39:52 pm »

Heh, special operations in Russia is not something that any Ukrainian forces would ever do, right? We all know that it never happened and will never happen again. *smiles mysteriously*

As for doing anything in Crimea... What for?
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Sergarr

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Re: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!
« Reply #19136 on: August 14, 2015, 03:51:43 pm »

Heh, special operations in Russia is not something that any Ukrainian forces would ever do, right? We all know that it never happened and will never happen again. *smiles mysteriously*
I agree, special operations in Ukraine is not something that any Russian forces would ever do, too. Totally.

As for doing anything in Crimea... What for?
Killing pro-Russian collaborationists and Russian-appointed administration, no?
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!
« Reply #19137 on: August 14, 2015, 03:52:32 pm »

Heh, special operations in Russia is not something that any Ukrainian forces would ever do, right? We all know that it never happened and will never happen again. *smiles mysteriously*

As for doing anything in Crimea... What for?
Reclaim the Crimea? Blow up Russian ships? Not much else to o

smjjames

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Re: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!
« Reply #19138 on: August 14, 2015, 03:54:38 pm »

Europ thred poll on crimea status when?

I think it did back when the crisis happened?

Although it was on the Ukraine-Russian threads that popped up (and kept imploding) rather than the Europol thread.
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ChairmanPoo

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Re: Sheb's European Megathread: Remove Feta!
« Reply #19139 on: August 14, 2015, 03:58:30 pm »

I think Crimea should be handed back to its rightful owners. I mean, of course, the Scythian Amazons
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